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Title: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on August 01, 2008, 10:08:33 PM I was very fortunate to hear Matt Schofield play both his TR (100w Custom Reverb Signature on half power, NOS5751 in V2) and an OTS both through my EMV-12L cab (admittedly a too small cab as the speaker was in a small combo where its not destined to stay) This was at (loudish) class room volumes but by no means cranked.
The differences were quite marked. Whilst he sounded just like himself through both, the TR was way bigger in its tone,even at lowish volumes, brighter and a more full bass with a superior clarity to my ear. The OTS was at a slight disadvantage in that it wasn't set up the same, the trimmer was at about 12o'clock I think (that didn't affect the cleans of course) and of course V2 was the standard AX7. The OTS sounded very nice indeed but a little way off the TR tone but then the difference in price is huge. To my ear the TR did sound a lot more Fenderish than the OTS which defintely had way more mids than the TR. We also tried the OTS through two cabs in parallel, a DrZ with a Vintage 30 and my EVM and I like the tone very much indeed, the V30 giving a real nice chime to the tone. I am now very seriously thinking of pairing the EVm with one of those when it moves into its 2x12. mmm.... food for thought!! Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cat on August 02, 2008, 01:03:55 AM Cool, thanks for posting. It must be noted that the TR CRS and the OTS are intended to be quite different amps, although I'm sure you're not suggesting they're meant to be identical. What did Matt think of the OTS?
Cat Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cadsy48 on August 02, 2008, 03:13:50 AM thats true, two rock claim to be an amp all of their own and not a clone...
in which case, shouldnt we be pushing nik to create a Two-Rock CR sig clone?? ;D ;) Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on August 02, 2008, 08:13:41 AM Cool, thanks for posting. It must be noted that the TR CRS and the OTS are intended to be quite different amps, although I'm sure you're not suggesting they're meant to be identical. What did Matt think of the OTS? Cat I think their starting points are pretty similar and the TR is definitely not a clone in the sense that the OTS is, what TR have done is take the design and refine it and improve it quite a lot. Matt wasn't that keen on the OTS, I think, but then he already has a TR!!. What I found was that the OTS was sufficiently similar for me to be heartened and to want to take it to a really knowledgeable tech who also knows the TR sound to see if he can mod mine to make it more like the TR. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: nickm57 on August 02, 2008, 08:29:51 AM Do you think this is a small component change caps, resistors, tubes or larger design based issue like the output transformer?
Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: AdrianJ on August 02, 2008, 12:36:21 PM in which case, shouldnt we be pushing nik to create a Two-Rock CR sig clone?? ;D ;) Nik, you listening?? FWIW if anyone here is thinking of moding their OTS to a TR CS type amp, there's a lot of very helpful people over on ampgarage.com... Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on August 02, 2008, 01:15:05 PM Do you think this is a small component change caps, resistors, tubes or larger design based issue like the output transformer? Not sure, in fact I'm not sure its even possible, they might be too disimilar. It might require a lot of minor changes and personally I wouldn't know where to start. I suppose a TR schematic would help ;D Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cadsy48 on August 02, 2008, 01:54:22 PM Im guessing the pic i posted in the "For those who want Two-Rock CR sig sound." wouldnt help at all?? only give you half an idea ;)
Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: Pickmaster on August 02, 2008, 01:56:29 PM First of all – is your OTS modified?
I have TR CRS 50 and CRS100 W also TR Kimok 50W and after 2 months of extensive tweaking my 50W OTS sounds bigger and sweeter than all of them. It also can do Plexy and Hi gain as a third channel. Beauty of the Dumble circuit is that one can tweak it endlessly. I also compared my OTS to my friends BLUDOdrive by Brandon Montgomery (exact copy of Robben Fords Dumble) and they were pretty similar. BTW if you want to hear it side by side with a BLUDOTONE come today to my gig at "the Winkfield", Lovel Road, Winkfield, Windsor, Berkshire, SL4 2ES, gig starts at 9pm. So don’t be broken hearted! Tweak your OTS and it will sound better the Matt’s amps :chairdance: Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: bluesfendermanblues on August 02, 2008, 03:49:56 PM First of all – is your OTS modified? I have TR CRS 50 and CRS100 W also TR Kimok 50W and after 2 months of extensive tweaking my 50W OTS sounds bigger and sweeter than all of them. It also can do Plexy and Hi gain as a third channel. Beauty of the Dumble circuit is that one can tweak it endlessly. I also compared my OTS to my friends BLUDOdrive by Brandon Montgomery (exact copy of Robben Fords Dumble) and they were pretty similar. BTW if you want to hear it side by side with a BLUDOTONE come today to my gig at "the Winkfield", Lovel Road, Winkfield, Windsor, Berkshire, SL4 2ES, gig starts at 9pm. So don’t be broken hearted! Tweak your OTS and it will sound better the Matt’s amps :chairdance: Which tweaks did you perform on your OTS Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: Pickmaster on August 02, 2008, 04:08:00 PM bluesfendermanblues,
As I’ve mentioned before I’ll post my tweak’s layout hopefully soon, after I’ll talk to Nik. Best wishes Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on August 02, 2008, 10:05:15 PM First of all – is your OTS modified? I have TR CRS 50 and CRS100 W also TR Kimok 50W and after 2 months of extensive tweaking my 50W OTS sounds bigger and sweeter than all of them. It also can do Plexy and Hi gain as a third channel. Thats great to know. I did some of the mods JZ posted plus I put a 680pF across the MV to brighten the tone at lower volumes. Still not where I want it to be and I wish I had the knowledge to try modding, but I need to be told 'change R(n) to XXXohms and C(n) to YYYpF etc' then i'll be able to get the iron warmed up. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cat on August 03, 2008, 03:16:49 AM bluesfendermanblues, As I’ve mentioned before I’ll post my tweak’s layout hopefully soon, after I’ll talk to Nik. Best wishes Will be much appreciated Pickmaster, Ill keep an eye out for them. Cat Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: JohnE on August 03, 2008, 07:47:02 PM Cool, thanks for posting. It must be noted that the TR CRS and the OTS are intended to be quite different amps, although I'm sure you're not suggesting they're meant to be identical. What did Matt think of the OTS? Cat I think their starting points are pretty similar and the TR is definitely not a clone in the sense that the OTS is, what TR have done is take the design and refine it and improve it quite a lot. Matt wasn't that keen on the OTS, I think, but then he already has a TR!!. What I found was that the OTS was sufficiently similar for me to be heartened and to want to take it to a really knowledgeable tech who also knows the TR sound to see if he can mod mine to make it more like the TR. Hi Hywelg, I am the guy who is a big Matt S fan here in the US, that is palying a Strat set Similar to yours (Fat warmoth neck, Lindy Frailin Vintage Hots, etc.). I just wanted to pass on to you my latest upgrade that has yielded remarkable results with the strat. The best part is you don't have to mod your OTS to make it a Two Rock and you can accomplish this a lot cheaper than buying that TR. As I have mentioned before, I have settings on my OTS that get a very good fenderish tone with my strat. The first key is to leave the deep switch off and stay out of the "rock" mode. These add that mid-range that makes the strat sound somewhat bloated. Now, I have just set-up a rack with a TC Electronic G-sharp and a BBE Sonic Maximizer 482i. I bought both new for a total of less than $280 US. They are running through the effects loop. With the OTS set up at 5 across the board except having the mid and base at about 7, Bright on, Deep off, Jazz on, OD and PAB on, I have a tone that far exceeds may '66 BFSR. The sonic maximizer will give you that "bigger tone, full bass with superior clarity" that heard in the TR. That is what it is design to do. The guitar actually has a very clean tone with the above settings. I just tried it with my FullDrive 2 to get a little hair on the tone and it was very, very nice. Check out the BBE Sonic Maximizer. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: JohnE on August 03, 2008, 07:52:13 PM I was very fortunate to hear Matt Schofield play both his TR (100w Custom Reverb Signature on half power, NOS5751 in V2) and an OTS both through my EMV-12L cab (admittedly a too small cab as the speaker was in a small combo where its not destined to stay) This was at (loudish) class room volumes but by no means cranked. The differences were quite marked. Whilst he sounded just like himself through both, the TR was way bigger in its tone,even at lowish volumes, brighter and a more full bass with a superior clarity to my ear. The OTS was at a slight disadvantage in that it wasn't set up the same, the trimmer was at about 12o'clock I think (that didn't affect the cleans of course) and of course V2 was the standard AX7. The OTS sounded very nice indeed but a little way off the TR tone but then the difference in price is huge. To my ear the TR did sound a lot more Fenderish than the OTS which defintely had way more mids than the TR. We also tried the OTS through two cabs in parallel, a DrZ with a Vintage 30 and my EVM and I like the tone very much indeed, the V30 giving a real nice chime to the tone. I am now very seriously thinking of pairing the EVm with one of those when it moves into its 2x12. mmm.... food for thought!! I am going to bore everyone to death with this, but...I have an Avatar cab with a Vintage 30 and a G12H30 and it makes any amp played through it sound better. Not familiar with the EVM 12L, but I can't say enough about the Vinatge 30. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on August 03, 2008, 10:17:40 PM Check out the BBE Sonic Maximizer. Thats interesting JohnE, I already had the G-sharp flagged as my next purchase effects wise. I will indeed check out a BBE. I'm assuming you are running without a any sort of dumbleator. Thanks Hywel Harris Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on August 03, 2008, 10:30:41 PM Just spent 10 minutes researching the BBE Sonic Maximiser and it seems to do a similar job to the Aphex Aural Exciter pedal I have, mainly enhancing low and high frequencies. I tried the Aphex in the loop and it wouldn't have it, I guess its not a line level device. I know they do rack mount units eg the 204
http://www.aphex.com/204.htm (http://www.aphex.com/204.htm) As with much of these type units there's not much info around on using them with a guitar rig. Be nice if you could footswitch them in and out of circuit. I'd be interested if anyone has tried these, the Aphex seem much more common here in the UK whilst the BBE appears much less so. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cadsy48 on August 03, 2008, 10:40:53 PM I just wanted to pass on to you my latest upgrade that has yielded remarkable results with the strat. The best part is you don't have to mod your OTS to make it a Two Rock and you can accomplish this a lot cheaper than buying that TR. As I have mentioned before, I have settings on my OTS that get a very good fenderish tone with my strat. The first key is to leave the deep switch off and stay out of the "rock" mode. These add that mid-range that makes the strat sound somewhat bloated. Now, I have just set-up a rack with a TC Electronic G-sharp and a BBE Sonic Maximizer 482i. I bought both new for a total of less than $280 US. They are running through the effects loop. With the OTS set up at 5 across the board except having the mid and base at about 7, Bright on, Deep off, Jazz on, OD and PAB on, I have a tone that far exceeds may '66 BFSR. The sonic maximizer will give you that "bigger tone, full bass with superior clarity" that heard in the TR. That is what it is design to do. The guitar actually has a very clean tone with the above settings. I just tried it with my FullDrive 2 to get a little hair on the tone and it was very, very nice. Check out the BBE Sonic Maximizer. Sounds nice! any chance you can get some clips up with the above settings?? Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: JohnE on August 04, 2008, 03:04:00 AM Just spent 10 minutes researching the BBE Sonic Maximiser and it seems to do a similar job to the Aphex Aural Exciter pedal I have, mainly enhancing low and high frequencies. I tried the Aphex in the loop and it wouldn't have it, I guess its not a line level device. I know they do rack mount units eg the 204 http://www.aphex.com/204.htm (http://www.aphex.com/204.htm) As with much of these type units there's not much info around on using them with a guitar rig. Be nice if you could footswitch them in and out of circuit. I'd be interested if anyone has tried these, the Aphex seem much more common here in the UK whilst the BBE appears much less so. Hywel, I have never heard of the Aphex, but it could not be any thing like the BBE 482i. The biggest problem with the the BBE is that you don't want to play without it, ever again. It gives your live sound a professional recording quality. I don't know if your familiar with harmony central, but there are quite a few reviews by guitarists for the Sonic Maximizer. I am talking about the mid-priced rack version here, I don't know if the pedal version is any good. The G-Sharp is pretty cool. It has way more features than I would use and a good deal of the effects don't sound that great to me. I wanted to set up my effects loop stuff in a rack for ease of gig set-up and it works great for that. The level control is very useful. I got the BBE rack unit as an alternative to a dumbulator or kleinulator and it has been a very pleasant surprise. In closing I just wanted to pass on that I have found that the OTS is tricky when it comes to getting good tone from the Stratocaster. This is a consequence of all the different features available. With the Super Reverb and mic'ing through the board, the settings never change. When I plug in the Les Paul to the SR I turn down from 4 to 3 and turn on the bright switch, done. With the OTS it s a major process to switch instruments. John Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: JohnE on August 04, 2008, 03:13:43 AM I just wanted to pass on to you my latest upgrade that has yielded remarkable results with the strat. The best part is you don't have to mod your OTS to make it a Two Rock and you can accomplish this a lot cheaper than buying that TR. As I have mentioned before, I have settings on my OTS that get a very good fenderish tone with my strat. The first key is to leave the deep switch off and stay out of the "rock" mode. These add that mid-range that makes the strat sound somewhat bloated. Now, I have just set-up a rack with a TC Electronic G-sharp and a BBE Sonic Maximizer 482i. I bought both new for a total of less than $280 US. They are running through the effects loop. With the OTS set up at 5 across the board except having the mid and base at about 7, Bright on, Deep off, Jazz on, OD and PAB on, I have a tone that far exceeds may '66 BFSR. The sonic maximizer will give you that "bigger tone, full bass with superior clarity" that heard in the TR. That is what it is design to do. The guitar actually has a very clean tone with the above settings. I just tried it with my FullDrive 2 to get a little hair on the tone and it was very, very nice. Check out the BBE Sonic Maximizer. Sounds nice! any chance you can get some clips up with the above settings?? I am not set up for computer recording, so I can't get something out quick. Sorry. I do have a 16 track digital recorder that I can produce .mp3's with. It resides at my band's rehearsal space and I don't use the OTS at rehearsal. However I gig with the OTS and my next gig is on 9 August. I will see if we can set up the recorder for the gig and record something that will give you an idea of what is going on with the BBE 482i and my strat settings. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cadsy48 on August 04, 2008, 10:45:04 PM no problems mate cheers for that!
i mean without having heard the two side by side in real life, i cant make a definitive comment. but i think the consensus is that the TR has a tighter smoothness to it, harmonically too, and just has a crystal clarity when attacking the strings that bring out the highs but without any harshness, if that makes sense... these sorts of things seem to be things that can be tweaked into a circuit such as the OTS however...i just need to hear and see it done bc i know bugger all about fiddling with amps!! Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: Handonam on September 18, 2008, 01:05:04 AM I just wanted to pass on to you my latest upgrade that has yielded remarkable results with the strat. The best part is you don't have to mod your OTS to make it a Two Rock and you can accomplish this a lot cheaper than buying that TR. As I have mentioned before, I have settings on my OTS that get a very good fenderish tone with my strat. The first key is to leave the deep switch off and stay out of the "rock" mode. These add that mid-range that makes the strat sound somewhat bloated. Now, I have just set-up a rack with a TC Electronic G-sharp and a BBE Sonic Maximizer 482i. I bought both new for a total of less than $280 US. They are running through the effects loop. With the OTS set up at 5 across the board except having the mid and base at about 7, Bright on, Deep off, Jazz on, OD and PAB on, I have a tone that far exceeds may '66 BFSR. The sonic maximizer will give you that "bigger tone, full bass with superior clarity" that heard in the TR. That is what it is design to do. The guitar actually has a very clean tone with the above settings. I just tried it with my FullDrive 2 to get a little hair on the tone and it was very, very nice. Check out the BBE Sonic Maximizer. Sounds nice! any chance you can get some clips up with the above settings?? I am not set up for computer recording, so I can't get something out quick. Sorry. I do have a 16 track digital recorder that I can produce .mp3's with. It resides at my band's rehearsal space and I don't use the OTS at rehearsal. However I gig with the OTS and my next gig is on 9 August. I will see if we can set up the recorder for the gig and record something that will give you an idea of what is going on with the BBE 482i and my strat settings. John, do you still have any recordings? I'm still curious :) Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on September 18, 2008, 07:54:11 AM Me too.
Just received my BBe Max-X2 which is a crossover (which I intend bridging) with Sonic maximiser built in. Also have a G# to go in the loop. Will report back on how it fares. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: Handonam on September 19, 2008, 04:59:11 PM Me too. Just received my BBe Max-X2 which is a crossover (which I intend bridging) with Sonic maximiser built in. Also have a G# to go in the loop. Will report back on how it fares. ooo great! if you can record it, can you record it with and without the effects in the loop? i want to see how big of a difference it makes Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: acs58lespaul on September 19, 2008, 07:21:40 PM thats true, two rock claim to be an amp all of their own and not a clone... in which case, shouldnt we be pushing nik to create a Two-Rock CR sig clone?? ;D ;) YES! If Nik made a Two-Rock Custom reverb sig Clone. I would snatch it up in a heartbeat! Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on September 19, 2008, 08:26:20 PM ooo great! if you can record it, can you record it with and without the effects in the loop? i want to see how big of a difference it makes It does make a very big difference but I think you'd need studio recording facilities to be able to hear it, which I dont' have, in fact I don't have any decent recording facilities unfortunately. I can confirm all that others have said about the sonic maximiser, it gives you a much bigger sound altogether, but whether it is a big as a TR CRS without a BBE I couldn't say, but getting close I would hope.The thing is this BBE Max-X2 was £50 second hand from a shop with a warranty so its not going to break the bank. They have more of them if anyone in the UK is interested. http://www.doubleball.co.uk/acatalog/XL2XL_Clearance_Items.html (http://www.doubleball.co.uk/acatalog/XL2XL_Clearance_Items.html) If Nik could make a TR CRS he would be swamped by orders and lawyers letters! Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: ampkits on September 28, 2008, 06:54:21 PM Hello guys,
You guys do like to tempt me huh? :) Anyone checked out the Hilden ODS on ebay? I think it sounds great, much more fendery than OTS. I think it's early 80s with fender values (still has accent knob). Maybe I'll do that version too. Hey, I'll do a free amp to anyone who can give me the MOST complete detail for SSS. This includes chassis/hole sizing info (CAD would be great), schemos, layouts, original pics, etc, and can consult/teach if I see something weird. Any takers? :) THanks! Nik Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: Jimmyd on September 28, 2008, 08:14:51 PM Hey, I'll do a free amp to anyone who can give me the MOST complete detail for SSS. This includes chassis/hole sizing info (CAD would be great), schemos, layouts, original pics, etc, and can consult/teach if I see something weird. Any takers? :) THanks! Nik Wish I could help you. All I can tell you is where not to ask! ;D Jim Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: ampkits on September 28, 2008, 10:38:55 PM Jim,
Hehe...I think I know that already, no free amp for you! LOL! Nik Wish I could help you. All I can tell you is where not to ask! ;D Jim Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: AdrianJ on September 29, 2008, 12:11:20 PM Hello guys, You guys do like to tempt me huh? :) Anyone checked out the Hilden ODS on ebay? I think it sounds great, much more fendery than OTS. I think it's early 80s with fender values (still has accent knob). Maybe I'll do that version too. Hey, I'll do a free amp to anyone who can give me the MOST complete detail for SSS. This includes chassis/hole sizing info (CAD would be great), schemos, layouts, original pics, etc, and can consult/teach if I see something weird. Any takers? :) THanks! Nik I hate to say it, but I think anyone who has that information already would probably be building their own SSS clone!! I would love to see a Two Rock flavoured Ceriatone amp though, maybe a single channel, clean only....reverb would be the icing on the cake...you could take some inspiration from the Fender AB763 circuits in the blackface era amps... Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: hywelg on September 29, 2008, 03:31:02 PM I hate to say it, but I think anyone who has that information already would probably be building their own SSS clone!! I would love to see a Two Rock flavoured Ceriatone amp though, maybe a single channel, clean only....reverb would be the icing on the cake...you could take some inspiration from the Fender AB763 circuits in the blackface era amps... Nah, we need the OD channel aswell Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: Dumbleseeker on September 29, 2008, 10:11:05 PM Nik,
I would be interested in an amp like Hilden's if you decide to do one. ;) Hello guys, You guys do like to tempt me huh? :) Anyone checked out the Hilden ODS on ebay? I think it sounds great, much more fendery than OTS. I think it's early 80s with fender values (still has accent knob). Maybe I'll do that version too. Hey, I'll do a free amp to anyone who can give me the MOST complete detail for SSS. This includes chassis/hole sizing info (CAD would be great), schemos, layouts, original pics, etc, and can consult/teach if I see something weird. Any takers? :) THanks! Nik I hate to say it, but I think anyone who has that information already would probably be building their own SSS clone!! I would love to see a Two Rock flavoured Ceriatone amp though, maybe a single channel, clean only....reverb would be the icing on the cake...you could take some inspiration from the Fender AB763 circuits in the blackface era amps... Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: AdrianJ on September 30, 2008, 08:50:04 AM Who is this "Hilden" person??
Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: erwin_ve on September 30, 2008, 09:30:49 AM Who is this "Hilden" person?? Check: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h0NAofXeieM(http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h0NAofXeieM) and http://www.gregorhilden.de/index.htm (http://www.gregorhilden.de/index.htm) On ampgarage there are some, not very detailed, pictures of his dumble . I think Hilden is a very nice player; plays nice melodies and always in the context of a song. Title: Re: TR CRS vs OTS Post by: cat on September 30, 2008, 10:26:15 AM Who is this "Hilden" person?? Check: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h0NAofXeieM(http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=h0NAofXeieM) and http://www.gregorhilden.de/index.htm (http://www.gregorhilden.de/index.htm) On ampgarage there are some, not very detailed, pictures of his dumble . I think Hilden is a very nice player; plays nice melodies and always in the context of a song. That was a great clip. Tone wasnt as "thick" as your typical Dumble tone, but still very very nice. Cat |