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| | |-+  pre-built or builder?
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Poll
Question: Subject says it all
builder   -14 (60.9%)
pre-built   -7 (30.4%)
modder   -2 (8.7%)
Total Voters: 23

Author Topic: pre-built or builder?  (Read 27959 times)
T Wilcox
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« on: July 27, 2011, 11:40:04 PM »

Hey guys

Noticed this forum is getting really slow lately and am wondering if its because the kits are no longer available or maybe its just everyones enjoying their summer Huh?
Anyways I know a few here are builders and some buy pre-built and others are on their way to building starting with mods and what not,just want to see what the ratio is.

Please vote

Thanks

Todd
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Kevster
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2011, 12:53:37 AM »

Ceriatone has (and had) a good reputation for service and quality.  I wanted to build a kit and they were the best option by far.  Of course, they changed their policies about kits at about the same time!!!  As a builder, they may not be the best option in the future as I may go completely with a scratch build rather than trying to split hairs over how they are supporting/selling their products.

Amplifiers are a tool to me, not just something I use as part of a hobby.  Building them is a hobby that'll give me great tools to use... Win/Win... The knowledge is available for building the amps, but the idea of a kit with a safety net was very appealing when I did my research.  It still is, but I'm not going to do another build until next year, unless people start asking me to build them amps... It's happened with plenty of other things, so I wouldn't be surprised.

I check in regularly, but it is just SO SLOW around here.  I'll post more when my stuff is HERE in a matter of DAYS!!!

We'll see how this poll goes....
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hywelg
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2011, 08:07:26 AM »

Sorry to say, but I'm not much interested in buying a prebuilt amp. I came here in the first instance because of the kits, built three, was looking forward to one maybe two more, but now its not to be.

With the death of the kits the builders/modders are all off to the Amp Garage.

Shame but I think Nik has made a big mistake.
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Kevster
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2011, 01:33:15 PM »

Shame but I think Nik has made a big mistake.
If so, then it is likely that "adjustments" in the level of completion of the products will likely be made.

It is surprising to me that the "kit provider" with the best reputation on the net (from what I found) isn't going to a kit provider in the future, but we don't see what Nik does day to day.  A fairly small percentage of his business may be kits while the builders monopolize his time... He may be absolutely right from the business side.

I think that the forum was populated primarily by builders.  If builders aren't "family" anymore, they will congregate with other builders elsewhere.... Nik isn't just doing a business adjustment, he's doing a culture adjustment.  The builder's culture isn't going to be a focus anymore.

I'm a former machinist (in the 80's), I've worked with wood on a number of quaity projects, and I did electronics assembly (with some design) in the 90's... I can scratch build an amp given the time to do the research and educate myself. Builders will still be builders.
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axiology
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 09:59:53 PM »

As much as I enjoyed building my OTS, and had the skills to do it, I realized I should have just ordered a pre-built. In my case, I have a limited amount of time to devote to musical pursuits, so I'd prefer to spend that time actually playing music than messing with gear........
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T Wilcox
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2011, 01:01:11 PM »

Thanks for participating guys

Keep em coming

Todd
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Ceriatone Ultra Champ ( build #5 )
TW Express clone ( build #4 )
Ceriatone HRM MK2 ( build #3 )
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Ceriatone OTS FM50 Modern Eagle Mod (Build #1)
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JohnA
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2011, 06:05:49 PM »

It's a tricky one, the quality of work of the pre-built Ceriatones is much better than most people could do themselves (me included) and although I really enjoy amp building it is time consuming and I should really practice guitar more Smiley

Nick's still going to do the package 1 kits, and I know, based on the amount of support he's given me in the past it must be very time consuming  for him even if only 1 in 10 people that buy kits ask for help, so I totally support his decision to concentrate on development, and who knows he might re-introduce kits at a later date.
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bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 07:16:21 PM »

amp building it is time consuming and I should really practice guitar more Smiley

Me too!!  Grin
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Respect for the big guy's work....we're at this part of the forum because of HAD's amps.
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2011, 07:21:01 PM »

I started out with an Ampmaker 5w SE then made the massive leap to an OTS.

Because of Nik's great support and help from TAG, it was a successful build and I have since gone on to scratch build a Dlator and a 5w EL84 D style amp. I have also built my own cabs.

Sourcing parts is a nightmare and I really like Nik's kits because that expensive and frustrating part is done for you.

Kits are the way to go, it keeps costs down and helps us afford what would just be a dream - our dream amps.

I am now confident of scratch building anything, but I really don't want to go through the parts nightmare again anytime soon! I wanted to build my godson a Chupacabra kit sometime but I guess I will have to think again - not that it was sold as a kit, though. I just hoped it would.

If Nik had produced an assembly manual, then that may have taken some of the support heat off him...?

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sonicmojo
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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2011, 11:03:23 AM »

I would have never built my first Dumble clone if it were not for Ceriatone.  Now I am hooked and spend many hours learning the art of amp building. Ceriatone has the best layouts and kits that I have seen in the limited world of DIY amp building.  I hate to see this resource go away. If anything, keep a limited selection of the Dumble kits alive and scratch all the others, please! 
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Kevster
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2011, 03:18:19 PM »

I agree with Sonicmojo...

Nik has goals for his business, which is HIS business.  He went from all kinds of kit models to a limited option on those models... I'd prefer far fewer models offered as kits (5 or 6?), but keep the full range of level of completion for THOSE models available.  We don't need 27 flavors of the same amp custom packaged.  One standard amp of X, and then a "mods" package for it that is totally separate.  Restrict the support available.  Kits for a Marshall, a Fender, a TW, a Dumble, and a Matchless.  One kit each.  With the OTS, you offer an "off the shelf" power amp upgrade and voice option upgrades.  If Nik is doing Package 1, with assembly, then the trannies aren't included anyway.  Same with the kits.... The Trannies are a major component in cost and weight, which are often left out anyway.  He's got the standard bags of parts he puts in a box with the chassis, boards, and faceplate.  If he puts an extra bag or two of parts in there for the custom aspects of it, these two bags can also be pre-packaged "off the shelf" upgrades.  It's up to the kit builder to know what to omit and replace.

Yes, people have to leave out parts and buy some things twice, but that's the cost of "getting what you want".  Nik shouldn't have to micro-engineer each amp so much.  There's a price for that, and it isn't just the customer charge, it's the fact that he isn't doing something else that would generate extra and residual revenue.

I think Nik is managing a growing business and is figuring it all out as he goes along.  It's my hope that he comes up with a few specific kits, an option of Package 1 with assembly for a number of models, and a complete build on others.  That's my hope, but it isn't my business.
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Tone Control
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2011, 11:55:36 PM »

I bought all of my Ceriatones pre-built, only one of them was built from a kit, and someone else built that, I bought it second-hand.
The cost saving of buying a kit would not be enough to justify the extra expense and risk (of messing it up), and the time for me, and I doubt I would match the build quality

btw I have not seen any noticeable drop in forum posts since a year ago, so I think people may be worrying too much

Nik's a smart guy and I assume he's done the maths and restructured his approach in the right way. I welcome the new models he promises - like everyone says, dedicated builders will source what they can from wherever, so no-one will find it impossible to build amps, it just won't be build-by-numbers as much
« Last Edit: July 31, 2011, 05:16:21 PM by Tone Control » Logged

Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
CeeEm
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« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2011, 06:46:57 PM »

I agree with Tone Control -
"The cost saving of buying a kit would not be enough to justify the extra expense..."
Not being a builder and after at least six months of research (of which many of the members of this forum have been an incalculable help) I bought a Bluesmaster 100watt that nineguitars did the trannies and some mods to. Besides the comments of my peers at gigs, I've shown it to techs who actually work on a lot of the other boutique amps and D-styled clones. They are tremendously impressed with Nik's craftsmanship (artistry?) and feel it is at least as good as the current top builders if not better. My point is Nik's completed amp (and of course it can be tweaked to the individual as the original D***** was) is the way to go for quality and cost.
I love this amp!!!
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Tone Control
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2011, 08:09:57 PM »

Besides the comments of my peers at gigs, I've shown it to techs who actually work on a lot of the other boutique amps and D-styled clones. They are tremendously impressed with Nik's craftsmanship (artistry?) and feel it is at least as good as the current top builders if not better. My point is Nik's completed amp (and of course it can be tweaked to the individual as the original D***** was) is the way to go for quality and cost.
I love this amp!!!


All my other amps are boutique brands, and none are assembled better. My luthier came round to test them all out the other week. Over all the lovely USA and UK-built boutique amps, he favoured the BM50. I look inside them all, and they are very tidy. Some makers like to use a chromed chassis, or be very geometric with layout, but let's go to first principles, this is Nik's custom-shop, where 8-10 guys or so sit and make boutique amps all day every day. What manufacturer is currently making as many hand-wired amps today? None I think. This is why I would not miss the chance to get these experts to build my amps, supervised by Nik himself. I can't remember the exact discount for a kit over an assembled amp, but if I was offered an option to buy a new Matchless, or a kit of the parts for a 35% reduction, to assemble myself, I'd go with the pre-assembled one every time

There's something more to think here: if you were buying a Ceriatone used, especially in 10 years time when Nik will have taken over the world, do you think a home-built one will have the same value as one built under Nik's supervision? Personally I'd pay extra for a Nik-built amp
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
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« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2011, 10:54:01 PM »

It was simple for me, I wanted to cut my teeth on a kit first and go from there. However, just like my findings in other jobs I have had, sourcing parts is a real PITA. So for me being able to quickly order a kit and know all the parts were going to be correct in every way was a real nice thing.

Right now I'm building a D-lator all sourced by myself and inevetiably I made a few goof ups on part size, etc. When it's 2:00AM and you're going over compenent specs it's bound to happen.  Embarrassed  It's nothing that isn't able to be fixed, but it's annoying just the same.

Also, in my poor ass state, saving 35% or whatever is nothing to scoff at. Plus, generally speaking I know what I'm doing in regards to building the amp. Now if the question is; "should someone with no electronic experience buy a kit to save money" the answer is a definite NO!
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Chris

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