Ceriatone Forum

Hey guys

Noticed this forum is getting really slow lately and am wondering if its because the kits are no longer available or maybe its just everyones enjoying their summer ???
Anyways I know a few here are builders and some buy pre-built and others are on their way to building starting with mods and what not,just want to see what the ratio is.

Please vote

Thanks

Todd

Ceriatone has (and had) a good reputation for service and quality.  I wanted to build a kit and they were the best option by far.  Of course, they changed their policies about kits at about the same time!!!  As a builder, they may not be the best option in the future as I may go completely with a scratch build rather than trying to split hairs over how they are supporting/selling their products.

Amplifiers are a tool to me, not just something I use as part of a hobby.  Building them is a hobby that'll give me great tools to use... Win/Win... The knowledge is available for building the amps, but the idea of a kit with a safety net was very appealing when I did my research.  It still is, but I'm not going to do another build until next year, unless people start asking me to build them amps... It's happened with plenty of other things, so I wouldn't be surprised.

I check in regularly, but it is just SO SLOW around here.  I'll post more when my stuff is HERE in a matter of DAYS!!!

We'll see how this poll goes....

Sorry to say, but I'm not much interested in buying a prebuilt amp. I came here in the first instance because of the kits, built three, was looking forward to one maybe two more, but now its not to be.

With the death of the kits the builders/modders are all off to the Amp Garage.

Shame but I think Nik has made a big mistake.

If so, then it is likely that "adjustments" in the level of completion of the products will likely be made.

It is surprising to me that the "kit provider" with the best reputation on the net (from what I found) isn't going to a kit provider in the future, but we don't see what Nik does day to day.  A fairly small percentage of his business may be kits while the builders monopolize his time... He may be absolutely right from the business side.

I think that the forum was populated primarily by builders.  If builders aren't "family" anymore, they will congregate with other builders elsewhere.... Nik isn't just doing a business adjustment, he's doing a culture adjustment.  The builder's culture isn't going to be a focus anymore.

I'm a former machinist (in the 80's), I've worked with wood on a number of quaity projects, and I did electronics assembly (with some design) in the 90's... I can scratch build an amp given the time to do the research and educate myself. Builders will still be builders.

As much as I enjoyed building my OTS, and had the skills to do it, I realized I should have just ordered a pre-built. In my case, I have a limited amount of time to devote to musical pursuits, so I'd prefer to spend that time actually playing music than messing with gear........

Thanks for participating guys

Keep em coming

Todd

It's a tricky one, the quality of work of the pre-built Ceriatones is much better than most people could do themselves (me included) and although I really enjoy amp building it is time consuming and I should really practice guitar more :)

Nick's still going to do the package 1 kits, and I know, based on the amount of support he's given me in the past it must be very time consuming  for him even if only 1 in 10 people that buy kits ask for help, so I totally support his decision to concentrate on development, and who knows he might re-introduce kits at a later date.

Me too!!  ;D

I started out with an Ampmaker 5w SE then made the massive leap to an OTS.

Because of Nik's great support and help from TAG, it was a successful build and I have since gone on to scratch build a Dlator and a 5w EL84 D style amp. I have also built my own cabs.

Sourcing parts is a nightmare and I really like Nik's kits because that expensive and frustrating part is done for you.

Kits are the way to go, it keeps costs down and helps us afford what would just be a dream - our dream amps.

I am now confident of scratch building anything, but I really don't want to go through the parts nightmare again anytime soon! I wanted to build my godson a Chupacabra kit sometime but I guess I will have to think again - not that it was sold as a kit, though. I just hoped it would.

If Nik had produced an assembly manual, then that may have taken some of the support heat off him...?

I would have never built my first Dumble clone if it were not for Ceriatone.  Now I am hooked and spend many hours learning the art of amp building. Ceriatone has the best layouts and kits that I have seen in the limited world of DIY amp building.  I hate to see this resource go away. If anything, keep a limited selection of the Dumble kits alive and scratch all the others, please! 

I agree with Sonicmojo...

Nik has goals for his business, which is HIS business.  He went from all kinds of kit models to a limited option on those models... I'd prefer far fewer models offered as kits (5 or 6?), but keep the full range of level of completion for THOSE models available.  We don't need 27 flavors of the same amp custom packaged.  One standard amp of X, and then a "mods" package for it that is totally separate.  Restrict the support available.  Kits for a Marshall, a Fender, a TW, a Dumble, and a Matchless.  One kit each.  With the OTS, you offer an "off the shelf" power amp upgrade and voice option upgrades.  If Nik is doing Package 1, with assembly, then the trannies aren't included anyway.  Same with the kits.... The Trannies are a major component in cost and weight, which are often left out anyway.  He's got the standard bags of parts he puts in a box with the chassis, boards, and faceplate.  If he puts an extra bag or two of parts in there for the custom aspects of it, these two bags can also be pre-packaged "off the shelf" upgrades.  It's up to the kit builder to know what to omit and replace.

Yes, people have to leave out parts and buy some things twice, but that's the cost of "getting what you want".  Nik shouldn't have to micro-engineer each amp so much.  There's a price for that, and it isn't just the customer charge, it's the fact that he isn't doing something else that would generate extra and residual revenue.

I think Nik is managing a growing business and is figuring it all out as he goes along.  It's my hope that he comes up with a few specific kits, an option of Package 1 with assembly for a number of models, and a complete build on others.  That's my hope, but it isn't my business.

I bought all of my Ceriatones pre-built, only one of them was built from a kit, and someone else built that, I bought it second-hand.
The cost saving of buying a kit would not be enough to justify the extra expense and risk (of messing it up), and the time for me, and I doubt I would match the build quality

btw I have not seen any noticeable drop in forum posts since a year ago, so I think people may be worrying too much

Nik's a smart guy and I assume he's done the maths and restructured his approach in the right way. I welcome the new models he promises - like everyone says, dedicated builders will source what they can from wherever, so no-one will find it impossible to build amps, it just won't be build-by-numbers as much

I agree with Tone Control -
"The cost saving of buying a kit would not be enough to justify the extra expense..."
Not being a builder and after at least six months of research (of which many of the members of this forum have been an incalculable help) I bought a Bluesmaster 100watt that nineguitars did the trannies and some mods to. Besides the comments of my peers at gigs, I've shown it to techs who actually work on a lot of the other boutique amps and D-styled clones. They are tremendously impressed with Nik's craftsmanship (artistry?) and feel it is at least as good as the current top builders if not better. My point is Nik's completed amp (and of course it can be tweaked to the individual as the original D***** was) is the way to go for quality and cost.
I love this amp!!!

All my other amps are boutique brands, and none are assembled better. My luthier came round to test them all out the other week. Over all the lovely USA and UK-built boutique amps, he favoured the BM50. I look inside them all, and they are very tidy. Some makers like to use a chromed chassis, or be very geometric with layout, but let's go to first principles, this is Nik's custom-shop, where 8-10 guys or so sit and make boutique amps all day every day. What manufacturer is currently making as many hand-wired amps today? None I think. This is why I would not miss the chance to get these experts to build my amps, supervised by Nik himself. I can't remember the exact discount for a kit over an assembled amp, but if I was offered an option to buy a new Matchless, or a kit of the parts for a 35% reduction, to assemble myself, I'd go with the pre-assembled one every time

There's something more to think here: if you were buying a Ceriatone used, especially in 10 years time when Nik will have taken over the world, do you think a home-built one will have the same value as one built under Nik's supervision? Personally I'd pay extra for a Nik-built amp

It was simple for me, I wanted to cut my teeth on a kit first and go from there. However, just like my findings in other jobs I have had, sourcing parts is a real PITA. So for me being able to quickly order a kit and know all the parts were going to be correct in every way was a real nice thing.

Right now I'm building a D-lator all sourced by myself and inevetiably I made a few goof ups on part size, etc. When it's 2:00AM and you're going over compenent specs it's bound to happen.  :-[  It's nothing that isn't able to be fixed, but it's annoying just the same.

Also, in my poor ass state, saving 35% or whatever is nothing to scoff at. Plus, generally speaking I know what I'm doing in regards to building the amp. Now if the question is; "should someone with no electronic experience buy a kit to save money" the answer is a definite NO!

For people who want to build amps, I can see the attraction, it's just that given the wage costs in Malaysia and the USA/UK, I can always work some overtime to pay someone in Malaysia to do a better job assembling an amp than I could ever hope to achieve. Nik's business decision will make it harder to build from scratch, but not impossible.  Have fun building them! I'll stick to just playing 'em

Tone

Thanks guys

Just so all are aware the poll was not to find out which is better, kit or pre-built.
Was just curious as to whether this forum has dried up a little due to the fact less people are building kits, and the ones that are building are now at TAG asking questions rather than here.
Seems there are just as many people here as before the kits ended, just less posts because nobody is working their way through builds anymore and needing help or suggestions from the rest who have already built these amps.
No doubt Niks crew builds some nice amps, just look at the gut pics on the website.
I also understand that it is Nik's business decision and I respect that. But it doesn't hurt to show him the interest is still there either.

Thanks again

Todd

I was thinking about this a bit today and realized this is really my position on the "no kits" question. Basically, my attitude is always from a consumer point of view. IMO, the more choices the better. So when a previous choice is taken away, I think generally, it's a bad thing.

ahh but he's promised a wider selection of amps, so it's a trade-off, I'll have to wait and see what new models arrive

exactly, and he may have time for custom one offs and custom mods to standard amps as well. I would rather have an amp builder with a well stocked variety of quality handbuilt, handwired amps, myself. Building them is neat, but like Tone Control said, i would rather play em than build em. i can always mod em or have em modded later, ir have Nik mod it when it's built.

Of course, that goes without saying. Every worldly thing is a compromise. But the one choice I was interested in will no longer be available. So, you're correct. For just the buyer and non-builder the choices will likely be wider. I'm certainly not going to fault Nik for doing whatever he wants to with his buisiness. Also, I would much rather see Ceriatone in business in any form than not at all.

I'm not sure why building and playing can't be equally as enjoyable. Being able to build an amp has no bearing on how well or how much enjoyment I get out of playing guitar. In fact I think I might just get a bit more enjoyment out of playing guitar with an amp I built.

I agree and certainly knowing how the amp is built, thanks mostly in part to the ones who have the time, patience, and skill to build it, have helped me alot in my modding and enjoyment, but I just don't have the time to do it. If I did, I would be alot more upset about the kits being discontinued (I was going to get a prinzetone kit and build it), but for now I'm just glad Nik is still in business. Who knows, he may bring the kits back one day

I too am glad Nik will be bringing out loads more amps, but I still think it was a bad decision to stop all kits. Most builders who do kits don't offer every amp as a kit and this would have been the best solution I feel. Nik could have offered one Fender tweed, one 18/36watter, one Plexi, one OTS, etc. That would have reduced his support overhead enormously.

My problem is access to parts. I don't have sufficient knowledge to know which resistors to use where, which type and wattage, which are good quality, which are prone to problems etc. Same with caps, trannies, etc etc. My interest in amps was fired by Niks kits, if they hadn't been available I would still have been saving up for a TR or a Matchless and playing an old Fender Pro Tube and hating it.

Still hoping NIk will bring em back.........

Hey Hywelg is there a particular amp you are interested in building? I got rather familiar with Mouser and what components to substitute when I built my TW express clone from scratch. Let me know if I can help!

Todd

Thanks Todd, no nothing in particular at the moment. I was going to build a BM100 but didn't make my mind up in time.

It's easy to get sidetracked into spending too much time messing with gear to the detriment of one's guitar playing skills.

Hi guys

Well, I think we thought long and hard abt kits.

If we do it, the board MUST be prewired, otherwise it gets very hard to pick em up one by one, and prone to mistakes. I feel that offering assembled board vs non, cost is abt same in terms of time as well as in terms of costs in resending missed parts.

2ndly, we wont be able to stock all the types of caps people want. Now we have Sozo, Mallory 150, 6PS, and 715P, and some odds and ends for the coupling caps. Definitely there'd be people who want Mallory PVCs, or other brands.

But, BARE BONES kits, we still do. This is the same exact thing as before, except you dont get capacitors, resistors, wire, and also screws (board screws are included). And of course, cheaper price.

i havent updated website because we will soon have a totally new one very soon. it's a total revamp/do.

Soon, once I have the online shopping cart, I guess we can offer the components on an a la carte basis. But NOT tied to any kit in particular. Therefore, the kit builder will be able to buy barebones, and then choose whatever he wants.

I think this is the easier way and a win win.  I get to sell it in an easier way, and builder will be able to buy with some choices for the components, right?

Thanks!

nik

Thank you Nik for chiming in, and doing so as to not yell at everyone taking such liberties with YOUR BUSINESS...  ;D

That does sound like a win/win, Nik.  Too many models, too many options, too many optional components... It has to become a nightmare at some point.  Maybe it did already!!!!

You shouldn't try to provide everything for scratch builders, but for those looking to build from a "kit" mentality.  People that can do some of it, but don't feel they can do it all (yet). Some might not have time (likfe me) to go get everything.  Personally, I think a board + assembly minus the trannies, tubes, and cab is a pretty reasonable compromise.  I'd say the board assembly would be a snap for me, but that is because of my experience.  Everything else will take some more care in my builds because that is where I have less experience.

If a customer wants to do more work, they need to provide more of the parts too.  (Personally, if I didn't build at least 90% of it, I would be concerned about having my name on it.  A subpar build by a novice doesn't help business.) If somebody is ready for a scratch build, they can get most of the stuff domestically for the same price or less after everything is factored in.  Ceriatone is selling its name (reputation), its know how, its quality component selection, and its build quality.  You give some of that away (more and more) the closer it gets to a scratch build.

If you try to do too many versions of the amp line as kits, I think it would become total chaos...

Hey thats good news Nik.
Guess the main thing for some about getting the bare bones is having to get the remaining parts from multiple other vendors.

Hey you didn't forget to vote did you ;D

Cant wait to see the new website

Todd

Thank for responding Nik. What you're talking about is very interesting. I guess not having the website updated is leading to much of the questions and guessing to what is available and what it not. The new site will be a welcome update.

Most of what I've been posting about is just pure conjecture. Right now my funds are in such a state that I can't afford to buy anything you may offer. :'(   But I sure hope someday that will be a different story. :)

Thanks again for all you do. My OTS HRM is just a joy to play and owe you a bunch of gratitude for it.

I think you're referring to a totally different thing than what I'm referring to. I've be here, there, everywhere in between and back again, and when I wasted the the most time to the possible detriment of my playing skill was when I messed with retail/large production equipment. Mostly wasted money, but just the same it was wading through all the marketing hype that was the waste not researching & building my own equipment. Of course it's a balance. There certainly are products available that I use that are not built by myself. (like my guitars for instance) But I haven't been more pleased with my sound ever since I started building my effects and my amp.

Also, I'm not the best player there is, but I can mix it up with some decent players and I have only gotten better since.

I think you have 2 separate issues here that you are combining as one

I too have massively improved my tone since I started ignoring what my local shops can afford to stock, and researching things myself. This includes boutique amps & pedals, and clones of both. This sounds the same as your experience of taking control of your sound, and ignoring the latest mass-market PCB amps in the shops

However, I have not built any of them, and to me, this has improved the quality of this experience, I built a DDL and some other pedals when I was 19/20-ish with a low income, the results were never good, and it took a lot of time. If I had less money, or more of an interest in building kits (and a lot more free time), I would assemble them, and I wish anyone well in those situations, but building them myself was not necessary to improve my tone.

I assume that Axiology meant for many people, building the amps can cut into playing time, so don't take that as a criticism.
Also, I find that I have to try to stop myself beign distracted with sitting on forums, and tweaking my latest studio wiring changes, installing patches for Protools, plugins, installing new monitors, etc. These all have this effect too, which is another reason I would try to avoid getting a soldering iron out

So
keep building if you like doing it, it is nice to make things if you have the time, but since for kit assembly it's usually like painting-by-numbers, it's more like the satisfaction of mastering a craft, whereas with the guitar playing, it can become the satisfaction of mastering an art, which is why I prefer playing
(same with decorating my house, I feel satisfied when I do it, but I'd rather pay a professional if I had the money)

I think you are quite wrong on a number of points Kevster, one being the sourcing of the correct components from a layout is both time-consuming, expensive and easy to get wrong, for us Brits it means dealing with multiple sources on a different continent.

Don't assume a scratch build saves money, try one and see :) :)

I reread my quote here, and I don't see anything that doesn't address and concur with what you said.  Of course, scratch builds ARE time consuming, that's why a kit is appropriate.  The problem lies in the people who are inbetween, in both skill and time available to build an amp. 

If you are referring to the board assembly comment I made, I'm referring to the soldering.  I did that every afternoon, five days a week, for a year and a half while finishing my degree.  The soldering isn't a problem.  I have a number of BOM's that people have graciously posted that will make any eventual order MUCH EASIER to get together.  Not EASY or QUICK, but better than starting completely from scratch. I'm not diminishing at all what it takes to build an amp.

Read Todd's post, Kevster, then you might understand.

There is no point sourcing a chassis and pots, knobs from Nik, *bare bones* if you have to go through the whole thing again with yet more international shipping to get the components you need.

You may as well scratch build it.

Sorry mate, I have no idea about your soldering...  :D

Lets not mix up the people that purchase the amp because they are looking for a certain tone at a really reasonable price and the other people who build the amp because they are looking for certain tone at a really reasonable price that they took part in building. Nothing wrong with either one
Tone is addictive but building your tone is equally if not more addictive. No one should buy a kit to build just because it takes $100 off the price tag, they will find it cost's them more in the long run. But if someone is interested in getting into the amp building as a hobby as well as ending up with a great boutique amp at the end, I believe a kit is the way to start. If kits were not available when I first became interested I may have never built an amp that I can feel quite proud of since sourcing the parts alone would have been a rather scary and extreme first build experience. Now that I have built 4 amps putting together a BOM and sourcing my own parts is not as scary but it is a PITA especially when you realize you forgot 1 little cap or somethingand have to pay shipping on something little like that again.

BTW I work full time am married and have 2 young boys, if you enjoy doing something as much as I enjoy building amps you will find time.

This is all just my opinion and I speak for no-one but myself

Have a great weekend 8)

Respectfully

Todd

Honestly, I don't even know what exactly is being discussed anymore. Somehow the discussion has gone from one thing to analogies about interior decoration.  ;)  Basically, if you know what you're doing, can build quality equipment and most of all, enjoy doing it, then do it. If you can't do it and/or don't enjoy doing it, then don't.

Also, I'm 46 and have long passed the idea of becoming the next guitar superstar. I play well, and do try to constantly broaden my musical and artistic horizons, but I don't forsee ever making large amounts of income from playing guitar. So I went to school and got a degree in electronics to remedy that situation. So for me personally, building equipment is just a logical extension of that.

I found Ceriatone soley because I was looking to build an amp and didn't realize that you could buy complete amps until I started exploring the website. I never approached the company from any other direction than that, and don't expect to ever approach it differently. This is the one reason, why the end of kits was a bigger disapointment to me than obviously it has been to others.

Edit: this post was written while the previous post was placed. Just a FYI.

Interior decoration?
Are you sure you weren't in the carpet cleaning thread up in the general section ;D

BTW Plasticvonaband has a vacuum! that one cracked me up

Todd

Yes I do, with a HEPA filter and all. :)

I was kinda bummed about the kits too, as i wanted to build a Prinzetone for my first build, but i may build a Supro from another company and buy the Prinzetone built by Nik instead. C'est la vie i guess

Gregg

Well from what I gathered on Niks last post he weill do a kit except the bd must be prewired! Thats how they always were unless you specified not to.

Get that Princetone before he changes his mind ;)

Todd

hmm good point, Todd. I may have to do that once he decided to do that, sounds like it's up in the air at the moment, if i read his post correctly.

Gregg

I found Ceriatone for two reasons.  Three years ago I was considering a Plexi.  I played one and realized it wasn't quite right.

Three reays later/today:  one word "Dumble".  Since Dumbles are not in my price range, I have to look at clones.  Ceriatone had three tings I wanted: a Dumble clone, a really good price, and a great reputation.

After educating myself and knowing what my end goal needed to be for a Dumble clone, I was doing a SERIOUS custom job on the head and speaker cabs.  A kit made more sense, and it still does.  I don't want to get bogged down with a project, I want what is the best Dumble "tool" for the job I need it for.  That's it... I need what I need, I want a Dumble foundation that I want.  Amplifier narcissism at its best!!!

It's all good.