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Author Topic: OTS, S&M, HRM: layman explanation please  (Read 25579 times)
zeeman
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« on: December 23, 2008, 02:29:18 AM »
Hi all,

I've been gassing for an overtone special for quite a while. I've been reading the board and listened to all the sound samples (many times) but am still not sure about the differences between the 3 versions. I'm not an electronics guy and never will be so I'm not so much interested in the schematical differences but more the sonic differences.

I like all of the sound samples, especially Marin's, but through small speakers or headphones it's difficult to attribute specific nuances of each clip to the amp, the player, the guitar used, the recording etc...

So.... What are the differences? What is an HRM and how is it different? How is the OTS different from the S&M? I'm a newbie to D style amps, are the above mentioned modeled after different versions of original D amps?

Sorry for all the questions but information on the Ceriatone site doesn't exist, manuals don't exist, and I don't want to get it wrong when I order.

My main guitars are tele's and occasionally I'll play a strat so I would mostly be using single coil pickups though a Les Paul would round out the collection nicely some day. I play a variety of different styles and have amps that fit most of them nicely but I'm trying to zero in on more of the Carlton live distorted blues sound or a derivative that I can call my own. Any answers to all or part of the questions or any other insights or recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 02:31:29 AM by zeeman » Logged
Bluestone
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 03:03:06 AM »
Hi there...
That`s a really good question & totally agreed on subject.
Ceriatone doesn`t supply much detailed info,. so any offerings would go along way.

My understanding is the original Ceriatone OTS circuit was solidly based on an 80s model 100 watter, with Ceriatone producing a 50 watt version of that.
Then came a few up-dated mods to the OTS circuit that were included as time went on.

Not so long back Nik made available the OTS 100 watter keeping the circuit up-dates from the 50 watt model.

In close pursuit came the HRM 50 & 100 models that I`m sure come from the 90s D circuit & includes an extra provition to fine tune the O/D circuit with three additional trim-pots in the gain circuit.
From what i read and hear,.. the O/D character can be fine tuned to achieve a smoother and more refined O/D.

As for the latest S&M model,..
Would be good to know more about this one.
As far as i`m aware,. this OTS includes circuit mod suggestions from two Overtone devotees.

I`m not sure if R.Ford and Mr. Carlton use 80s or 90s HRM D amps.
Both amps can sound very similar, but i think the HRM does have a smoother O/D.

I see Larry Carlton on youtube performing 'minute by minute' using his old 54 blackguard Tele & that D amp really suits the Tele big time..!!
Smooth and fat with lots of clarity & chime.
Chords ring through nicely & single lines & double stops sing & are sound full and fat..!

I love Tele`s, but have never really found an amp i like to go with them.
The Tele D-amp combo is a winner i think.
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shebbycaster
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 05:52:10 AM »
The original OTS was supposed to be a clone of D Amp #124.  The owner apparently had  the opportunity to play a number of original Ds and said that #124 was his particular favorite of all the ones he had played.  This is the version you hear in Marin's and Sami's sound clips.  It has a certain brightness to it that a lot of people like.  This is what is now referred to as the S&M (Sami and Marin) version.

After this circuit was out for a while, Jack Zucker and Gil Ayan collaborated on some mods to "smooth out" the tone and make it somewhat warmer or less bright.  At  this point most of these mods are in the stock Ceriatone OTS circuit.

Both of these use a PAB (PreAmp Boost) circuit that takes the treble/mid/bass tone stack out of the circuit when it is engaged.  This results in a boosted, mid heavy sound in either channel when it is used.

The HRM (Hot Rodded Marshall or Hot Rubber Monkey) version has three internal trimmers to shape the PreAmp Boost sound.

The "Zucker" circuit and the S&M circuit are both conducive to a player friendly sort of compression and sustain.

The HRM is said to be offer a bit more articulation which may feel a bit stiffer in a good way to faster players.  And it offers the internal three way tone stack for the preamp boost function.

You can't really go wrong with any of the versions of this great amp.  Pick the one that appeals to you and choose the wattage you want.
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erwin_ve
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2008, 10:08:04 AM »
The Ceriatone Ots, including the S&M model, never had the correct #124 values.

I recently played through an exact #124 clone. The clean on that amp was bigger than any d-clone I ever played. The od on that amp is low gain but suits teles and strats very nice.

The standard Ots is a more gainy amp; it's possible to play with higher gain settings than a #124 clone. Clean is great but not as great as #124.

The HRM clean is the same as the OTS, the od channel has a potentially nicer "high" gain sound than the nonHRM(standard OTS) with tighter low end. This tighter thing on the low end is possible because it's fitted with a internal extra tone stack at the overdrive channel.
Note: high gain is not really high gain. But just to describe the possibilities of this amp.

The S&M model imho does one thing right; make a good sound in overdrive mode.
All the other models have a good balance between clean and od sounds(you don't have to dial in your sound again after switching channels). I think the S&M model sucks at that point. But anyway it's good sounding if you use the od channel only.
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zeeman
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2008, 02:00:24 PM »
Exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. Thanks for the replies. Decisions, decisions... I play some clean country, rockabilly, jump blues, classic rock, and jazzy blues along the lines of Carlton and Ford (or at least attempt to). Cleans are somewhat important but the main interest in the OTS is for the distortion. I use varying degrees of distortion from mild to fairly intense but no metal.
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erwin_ve
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 04:57:23 PM »
Quote from: zeeman on December 23, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
Exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. Thanks for the replies. Decisions, decisions... I play some clean country, rockabilly, jump blues, classic rock, and jazzy blues along the lines of Carlton and Ford (or at least attempt to). Cleans are somewhat important but the main interest in the OTS is for the distortion. I use varying degrees of distortion from mild to fairly intense but no metal.
I think the HRM does the right thing for you.
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Jimmyd
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 08:43:50 PM »
Quote from: zeeman on December 23, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
Exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. Thanks for the replies. Decisions, decisions... I play some clean country, rockabilly, jump blues, classic rock, and jazzy blues along the lines of Carlton and Ford (or at least attempt to). Cleans are somewhat important but the main interest in the OTS is for the distortion. I use varying degrees of distortion from mild to fairly intense but no metal.

I think the non-HRM does the right thing for you.  Grin
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Bluestone
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 10:00:48 PM »
Can the HRM be adjusted to approximate the O/D tones of the OTS...?
It would make sense to consider the HRM if it can cover several sonic bases in the O/D channel.

I`ve also heard the out put of the two 6L6 model is closer to 43 watts than 50,
so the four 6L6 model must run 85 - 90 watts.
Can anyone confirm this..?

I`ve played the two 6L6 OTS and think four 6L6s would be the ticket for a bigger tone with more head-room.
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erwin_ve
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 10:20:36 PM »
Quote from: Jimmyd on December 23, 2008, 08:43:50 PM
Quote from: zeeman on December 23, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
Exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. Thanks for the replies. Decisions, decisions... I play some clean country, rockabilly, jump blues, classic rock, and jazzy blues along the lines of Carlton and Ford (or at least attempt to). Cleans are somewhat important but the main interest in the OTS is for the distortion. I use varying degrees of distortion from mild to fairly intense but no metal.

I think the non-HRM does the right thing for you.  Grin

 Cheesy He's getting a hard time to choose  Grin
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Bluestone
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 10:47:18 PM »
There`s a thread on page 2.. "getting that Larry tone".
The talk is 5881 tubes..!
Could be of interest since you`re looking in that direction tone wise.

Keep in mind.... Carlton & Ford play through 100 watt D-amps.
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zeeman
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2008, 12:35:26 AM »
Quote from: Bluestone on December 23, 2008, 10:00:48 PM
Can the HRM be adjusted to approximate the O/D tones of the OTS...?
It would make sense to consider the HRM if it can cover several sonic bases in the O/D channel.

I'd love to hear an answer to this also. I sort of think the 50 watt would more than suit my needs.

It would be great to have the three versions in the same room for an hour but such is not the case. The head is definitely spinning a bit but trying to figure it out is half the fun.

Going just off of sound clips I've heard, which have so many variables it makes a side by side comparison unreliable, I would probably choose one of the non HRM models. But if you can tweak the trimmers and get the same sound as the original then what the hey.
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hywelg
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2008, 09:53:04 AM »
Personally if I had to choose again I'd go for the 100w (it wasn't available when I got mine) since every time I have tried an amp that has 2/4 poweramp valve switching the 4 valve has sounded bigger, fuller and generally more impressive, and lets face it 100w is not that much louder than 50, logarithmic scale, so 500w is twice as loud as 50w.

Also the plain OTS out of the box I found to have a harsh, too trebly, OD channel. Its better now I did the Pickmaster mods to the snubber caps, but I think I would have preferred the EQ possibilities on the HRM.

My plan is for a 100w HRM later next year to which I will fit powerscaling (if my experiments with the DC-30 kit I'm building with powerscaling prove successfull). Provided the band hasn't fallen out and split by then of course, sometimes it looks imminent !!.
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Steven_nl
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2008, 11:39:23 AM »
Quote from: hywelg on December 24, 2008, 09:53:04 AM
Provided the band hasn't fallen out and split by then of course, sometimes it looks imminent !!.
That's because you play so loud :-)
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hywelg
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2008, 05:48:54 PM »
Nah not me mate, its the drummer that sets the volume in our band. Think Animal in the Muppets Grin
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Pickmaster
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2008, 06:59:39 PM »
Quote from: hywelg on December 24, 2008, 05:48:54 PM
Nah not me mate, its the drummer that sets the volume in our band. Think Animal in the Muppets Grin

Same here, bloody drummers Grin
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