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Author Topic: My ODSish rant!  (Read 10951 times)
ChrisL
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« on: July 24, 2008, 01:21:45 AM »
Hey Folks,

A lot of recent OT threads are kind of getting on my nerves. 

Let's go back a year or so....

I was one of a few who originally asked Nik for an ODS "like" circuit for the purposes of an experimental platform.  I didn't know if it was going to be a non-HRM, HRM or if it would have Skyliner TS or Bluesmaster PI,,,,components and their values, 50 watt or 100 watt..etc.  I didn't even see a layout until a few months after the project got in motion.  Once I did see the layout I knew the build was loosly based on #124 with a bit of Brownnote's D'lite in there, too.   It was kind of a "mutt".  That was cool and Nik built exactly what I wanted.  It took another few months to get the chassis and by that time I had a long list of components to swap.  Remember it was ordered as a basic platform for tweaking.  That is what the amp still is.  Tweaking is the whole premise of the ODS circuit.

All this recent crap... "Can I sound like so and so?  Will it do this tone or that tone?  Aargh!

OK, Let me YELL this to all you guys...

It's ALL in the tweaks.  (Not mods...there are no mods!!  Zucker mod,,,blah blah. Sorry Jack. Grin)

The od is harsh?  Well, of course it is.  Anyone with any experience can assume that just by looking at the original layout.

The ODS circuit in it's many forms and variations was designed with the intention to be able to tweak to each individual players style and tonal preferences.   My god, spend a bit of time at the amp garage forum to see good (really good) builders obsessing and arguing over the finest details on these circuits.
 
My personal opinion is... if anyone buys the OT and is satisfied with the tone right out of the box??.....Eureka!  You've found the needle in the haystack. 

But, I advise you to expect to get your "hands dirty".  It's the nature of the circuit. 

The OT is simply an affordable platform to "build" your own tone. 

So, unless you are completely satisfied with the tone of the amp right out of the box, either roll up your sleeves, study (alot) and tune to get the most out of the circuit or look elsewhere because you are wasting your time and doing the amp a dis-service in saying "the OD is harsh, I don't like it".

Oh and....

Guys like John Mayer could pull a dried up, weather beaten, plank off the side of an old barn, string it with bailing wire, and plug into a pignose and.....still have tone of the gods.  Revel in your own unique tone.

Sorry fellas, It's nasty hot and humid and I'm grumpier than a bear with a sore ass.

Rant done.

Cheers,

ChrisL  Cool
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mcinku
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 05:37:23 AM »
Chris, all I can say is, I'm with you on this...
 Grin

 Wink
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casken
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 06:03:27 AM »
I guess I am the one that found the needle in the haystack.  I would not change anything from the amp to my speaker cab.  This is exactly what my ears wanted.  It is quite simply the best sounding amp I have ever heard, as advertised and more.  While I have no idea about the history of this amp I am certainly glad it is here now.  Eureka!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 06:05:12 AM by casken » Logged
AdrianJ
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 07:41:45 AM »
Chris,

I hear ya, and as one of the people who has asked "will it get this tone" etc, I would like to clarify that I do expect to have to tweak it, that's half the fun isn't it?

The reason I've been asking is that, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, you can only tweak an amp so far, and I didn't want to order an OTS if I wasn't going to be able to get it to where I want it.

I guess we all you a big thanks for being one of the people who encouraged Nik to get this great amp off the ground.

I can't wait til I get to order mine (in kit form) and put it together....test it....change things....test it....change more things.... well you get the drift!!
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erwin_ve
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2008, 08:30:42 AM »
Hi Cris,

Once a amp is becoming popular this thing is just happening.

I'm not a native english speaker; so the difference between a mod or a tweak is not clear Undecided ; for me it's the same.
I spend many hours reading ampgarage's dumble section. So basically I did the tweaks/mods as Zucker posted it(we all know who passed them). Plus some minor extra tweaks.
I agree on most of your comments, but  realize for a lot of folks it's scary to dig themselfs in this kind of electronics without any background.
Most just heard of it and want to buy that tone without any hassles. Just as if they would go to the store to buy a mesa or matchless.

So your statement: "The OT is simply an affordable platform to "build" your own tone. " is not common knowledge. Guess what happens if Nik is making this statement the primary for the overtone...
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hywelg
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2008, 08:37:46 AM »
The mere fact that Nik is making this amp available to the general public is bound to have some less knowledgeable folks asking questions. The problem then comes when those less knowledgeable (myself included) don't quite understand the terminology being used by those who have tweaked the circuitry.

I am quite capable of making mods to my OTS, and I want and need to make the clean channel brighter, but am befuddled with the all the mods that have been presented on this forum, especially as not every mods' effect on the amp is explained, its sort of assumed that we'll know which mods we need to make and which to leave alone. I've come to the conclusion that I'll probably take it to a tech and explain what I want and hope that he'll have the knowledge to go right to it.

Tone is very highly subjective and since very few people are able to hear an OTS in the flesh and before they make the leap of faith of buying one they want to know if the amp stands comparison to something they have heard in the flesh, a very valid starting point I would have thought. I know what I want in my OTS, a mixture of SuperReverb clarity, Marshall crunch, MEsa high gain, Ac30 brightness, Tweed............. only joking. Seriously most people know what they want to hear and the 'D' sound is such a rarity to find in the flesh I think its natural to be cautious.

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Nathan
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 11:03:29 AM »
I feel a LOT aimed in this thread.

What's the problem ?  Huh?

As erwin_ve said, tweaking an amp isn't that simple.

You have to be careful and have already some knowledge in electronic to not killing yourself with a charge coming from a capacitor.

I will done some tweaks/mod and maybe others and they will be do by an amp tech !

I spend long time on the amp garage forum, and exchange few mail with people which HAVE the knowledge to mod a D-style amp. And I'm happy that on this forum too lot of people try to help me.

And I will do some tweaks, but KEEP in mind that see how an amp will sound like just by watching the layout or tweak an amp is not as simple ...

I feel it's a bit pretentious to say "Oh my god, just tweak your amp if you're not happy with it ! YES it's harsh haven't you see the layout ?!"

I don't understand why it's getting on you nerve that people don't like the amp the way it is actually (with no personal tweaks), for me it's just "normal" and as the overtone will get famous as more you will have that kind of post.

I enjoy the fact that Dumble style amp is getting more democratizes and will not be reserved to some kind of an "elite" of people who can know how an amp will sound like just by reading the layout ...

So sorry ChrisL but as the Overtone will get famous they will be more and more "noob-post" like mine asking for some help with tweaks.


Best regards Wink


Nathan

ps : I'm in the same case as erwin_ve, I'm not a native english speaker so for me tweak and mods are the same.
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nickm57
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 12:13:00 PM »
Come on
This is why the man(Howard D) was employed at a high cost to build your amp. His experience and ears. Good engineers can interpret what you tell them and help achieve the sound you are chasing.
Howard D was great at this, just as Robben Ford Larry, Carlton, Lowell George, David Lindley, SRV, Ry Cooder and many others are at playing. They employed him to create the sound they wanted, you can't do it all. To just tune it your self is like asking a beginner guitar player to tune a guitar. It takes time guidance and experience.
If you go down this path you'll spend more time messing with your amp than playing.

If people ask a general question then it maybe just to get into the ball park. I'm not going to use a ES175 through a JC120 to get Steve Vai's sound?

Nick
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mcinku
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 12:27:19 PM »
I think if you want to mod your amp, first do your homework... learn about the design. Only then you will be able to understand what those gurus are talking about and only then you will be able to make your own conclusions and decision what to change.

For example, if you want to make your OD sound darker, there is a lot of things you can do to achieve that. The easiest way is to follow tweaked layout from Jack but what happens if your clean channel now sounds to dark Huh?? .... see, only if you know what those elements are doing, you will be able to make the right decision.

...or go to an amp tech who knows these amps and he will do it for you but expect to pay some $$$ for that. ...and not any amp tech will do, you have to know these D style amps to be able to tweak them.
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casken
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 03:35:03 PM »
As one who will not tweak or mod a thing on my amp because I couldn't be happier with it...I have a rant!

I have read this thread and some of the responses and to be honest it stirkes me a little like the bear with the sore backside.

  I have collected a few very nice guitars in my time and was thrilled to get an amp that is their equal.  The Overtone is.  Thanks to Nik and all on this board who were involved.

Having said that...I thought the whole point of forums to to learn, teach, share information and generally share some common passions.  Music is one of mine.  While I can't tweak a night lite without instructions and half a day, I do know tone.

Some of us here are not learned in the way of electronics, nor any of the operational functions of an amp.   Nor do we have time to become students of amp technology...just plug me in and make it sing is the goal. To suggest that our unlearned questions and discussions are somehow inapproriate or need not be offered until one does "research" so they can bring an educated discussion to the table of the "intellegent ones" is pure snobbery and is much worse that newbie questions.  If you aren't inclined to answer, don't.

While I admire the knowledge and abilities of several of you on this board, to suggest perimeters for posting follow guidelines only gurus can understand is a bit, well I think Nathan used the correct word. Some of us here are just not as educated in this particular area.  I have a few areas of expertise myself and could confound many here if I used the lingo inherent to the disciplines.  That ability does not make me smarter or better...just educated in that discipline.  I have never been offended because someone wanted me to clarify, educate or correct term usage.  I sincerely do not understand the angst over having an opportunity to help someone.

...people come here and ask for information because you know the answers. 

Think about it.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 06:16:47 PM by casken » Logged
AdrianJ
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2008, 07:27:25 AM »
Quote from: casken on July 24, 2008, 03:35:03 PM
As one who will not tweak or mod a thing on my amp because I couldn't be happier with it...I have a rant!

I have read this thread and some of the responses and to be honest it stirkes me a little like the bear with the sore backside.

  I have collected a few very nice guitars in my time and was thrilled to get an amp that is their equal.  The Overtone is.  Thanks to Nik and all on this board who were involved.

Having said that...I thought the whole point of forums to to learn, teach, share information and generally share some common passions.  Music is one of mine.  While I can't tweak a night lite without instructions and half a day, I do know tone.

Some of us here are not learned in the way of electronics, nor any of the operational functions of an amp.   Nor do we have time to become students of amp technology...just plug me in and make it sing is the goal. To suggest that our unlearned questions and discussions are somehow inapproriate or need not be offered until one does "research" so they can bring an educated discussion to the table of the "intellegent ones" is pure snobbery and is much worse that newbie questions.  If you aren't inclined to answer, don't.

While I admire the knowledge and abilities of several of you on this board, to suggest perimeters for posting follow guidelines only gurus can understand is a bit, well I think Nathan used the correct word. Some of us here are just not as educated in this particular area.  I have a few areas of expertise myself and could confound many here if I used the lingo inherent to the disciplines.  That ability does not make me smarter or better...just educated in that discipline.  I have never been offended because someone wanted me to clarify, educate or correct term usage.  I sincerely do not understand the angst over having an opportunity to help someone.

...people come here and ask for information because you know the answers. 

Think about it.



Very well put...

I use forums as a means of research...
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ChrisL
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2008, 05:46:10 PM »
Hey guys,

First of all. Great posts.  Sometimes we all need to be put in our place when we get a little "uppity".  A heated discussion every once in while is good for the soul..lol.

My rant on "tone" stemmed in fact from a customer who is interested in an 18 watt TMB and was over to the studio to try it out.  It was one of those "I want to sound like Jimi Page"...Is this the amp for me?  I just rolled my eyes and thought (just thought)...man, there ain't NO amp that's going to make YOU sound like Page.

I'm a strong proponent of tone is just a reflection of your heart and soul spilling out through your hands.  All the greats and not so greats are going to sound like themselves regardless of the gear.

As for the OT, or any of Nik's amps for that matter,  I do stick with what I said in my original post 100%.  Fellas, this isn't about sharing tips on how to do a tweak or two.  I love to help.  In fact, my ravings are because I am concerned with helping .  If anyone asks, "Hey Chris, what's your take on the difference between using a .01uf and .05 uf mid cap?  Sure, you got it.  Great question.
  But if you come along and say, "I just got my Overtone and it seems a little bassy....What can I do? Oh and BTW I've never touched the inside of an amp before." 

NO WAY!  This thing can/will kill you.  If you don't want to do the detailed homework, fine.  You don't want to learn the lingo, fine.  PLEASE! Take it to a tech.  You'll be out and rockin within a week.  If I am coming across as arogant, well, fine then, too.   

And, if you are comfortable inside an amp.  Great.  But an ODS is no champ or 18 watt.  It's baffling to me at times and I've been deep into this circuit for quite a while now.

I just can't comprehend that if you are not learned in electronics nor feel inclined to become so....why on earth would you want to go probing around the innards of an amp as comlex and lethal as the Overtone?  If you had a Bogner or Two Rock would you consider doing the same?

 If you choose to open up the Overtone take a little personal responsibility and get educated.  All it really takes is a evening away from the tele and some concerted concentration and reading to get the gist.

It's late.  Shall we continue tomorrow? Wink
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ic-racer
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2008, 07:02:50 PM »
I always considered Ceriatone to be a amp kit company. In fact on the home page, the first sentence is:

Quote
Thank you for visiting CeriaTone, home of quality and affordable guitar tube amp board kits.

As such, the Overtone is an excellent kit, as you can build it and mod it as you please.

Those that ask for a pre-built kit, are going to have a disadvantage to those that build the kits themselves.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 07:04:23 PM by ic-racer » Logged
erwin_ve
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 06:47:58 AM »
IC-racer; Your 124 build and your detailed building on this board is making me buying my second overtone. 1 for gigging and the 2nd purely for testing. I really like the way your 124 sounds, so I'm gonna try that... Tongue
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ic-racer
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2008, 10:10:02 PM »
Do you have the full 124 schematic?
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