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Author Topic: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice  (Read 129124 times)
StratUltra
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« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2012, 11:16:05 PM »

Just a little update,

The amp certainly sounds much better after some tweaks but admittedly I haven't had as much time to play it as much as I'd like as of late. Having a newborn and work has been taking up most of my time.

Gregg- like you, I've engaged the bright switch on the Clator which is closer to the drive knob which improve and brightens things up, but I'm finding that i need to wind the treble almost to 10 to get it sounding nice and crisp. The bright pull switch on the volume doesn't appear to do too much to help, and when engaging the secondary bright switch on the Clator next to the out knob, it causes a nasty hissing. The secondary switch does help brighten it up, but the hissing annoys me too much to use it. If I remember correctly, engaging all the switch switches didn't work well with the OD channel.

In terms of the OD, although it isnt quite where i want it to be, I think I'll eventually be able to tune this to my liking, but the next steps will be to change the speaker to a EVM to naturally brighten her up without having to set the treble at max to get those crisp cleans, and possibly replacing the tubes as suggested above to enhance the tones.
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StratUltra
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« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2012, 11:27:12 PM »

Hey thanks Stephen,

Ive been taking that same approach to dial in the OD, but it seems that the bluesmaster sounds best with very little drive on the OD trimmer about 9 and the gain set higher beyond 12 o'clock. Even at those settings, there isn't as such drive as I like, and Anythig beyond gets fizzy.... I'll keep a tweaking though!
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rane008
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2012, 05:59:38 AM »

Tube and Speaker change are your best bets, I think.  Seriously, check out Mike at kcanostubes.com.  Great guy and you can get what you need. 

A used EVM-12L shouldn't cost more than $120.  Keep checking local craigslists. 

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StratUltra
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2012, 06:17:11 AM »

Will do! Only problem with the EVM is that I'm in the land down under.... Shipping here would be a fortune and EVMs aren't readily available on the second hand market Sad

In terms of the tubes, that shouldn't be an issue as he ships international Smiley
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StratUltra
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2012, 11:28:38 AM »

I haven't bothered with the internal HRM trimmers yet. Got too much knobs as it is ( no jokes please! Haha).

Hmm, one of the reasons why I went with a Clator was that I could drive the preamp for the OD but still be able to play at low volumes. Was I wrong in this assumption?

I haven't yet been able to play the amp at volume yet, but now I'm keen to. To be honest, I spend most of my time playing at low volumes, which makes me wonder if I made the wrong choice. YouTube clips are deceiving in the sense that you really can't get a feel for how loud the amps are being run at :/
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rane008
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 02:30:05 PM »

You can get plenty of great tones off this amp at bedroom levels using the Clator.  Will it sound better at gig levels? Yeah it will, but you can still do some great work at quieter volumes.  The weber Michigan ceramic may be a good alternative to the EV for you.  Affordable and they ship internationally.

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SoundPerf
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2012, 06:40:36 PM »

You can get plenty of great tones off this amp at bedroom levels using the Clator.  Will it sound better at gig levels? Yeah it will, but you can still do some great work at quieter volumes.  The weber Michigan ceramic may be a good alternative to the EV for you.  Affordable and they ship internationally.

Yes, I have to take exception to not getting good tones at bedroom levels. Of course the louder the better. But that is really all dependent on room size. Becuase "too loud" is possible too......Well, at age 47, it is. Grin

This is at very, very quiet "bedroom" levels. The amp had about 25 hrs. of playing time on it. If you listen close at the end you can hear me switching the footswitches to show how quiet it was.  http://home.comcast.net/~soundperf/myfilelocker/Music/HRM50_Jam_CAN.mp3

I know having just a 1x12 setup is desirable, but maybe the reason why I never had any issues with speakers and getting a balanced sound was going with a 2x12 with two different speakers from the start.

I also disagree that the internal trimmers aren't important. I barely have the bass trim on, but I spent a good bit of time finding that "barely on" sweet spot. Also the treble is very sensitive on mine. Too much on that trim and it was crappy O/D. And while, I'm tempted to say not mess with the internals until the amp is broken in, that's not completely necesarry. It just may be necesarry to go back later on and re-tweak them. While, I have my amp pretty much "set & forget" now, I don't assume that I'll never have to go back and mess with things. Especially if I go with a completely different set of tube, etc.
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Chris

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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2012, 11:07:19 PM »

You can get plenty of great tones off this amp at bedroom levels using the Clator.  Will it sound better at gig levels? Yeah it will, but you can still do some great work at quieter volumes.  The weber Michigan ceramic may be a good alternative to the EV for you.  Affordable and they ship internationally.

Yes, I have to take exception to not getting good tones at bedroom levels. Of course the louder the better. But that is really all dependent on room size. Becuase "too loud" is possible too......Well, at age 47, it is. Grin


I also agree with this. I have found that using the amp and the c-lator together, i can get awesome sounds at both bedroom levels and gig levels. Most of the magic in the D-Style amps is in the pre-amp, and they were designed to sound great at low and high volume. This is why they are so responsive to changes in preamp tubes and changes in preamp voltages. The output section sounds its best when biased colder than most rock tube amps (55% vs 70% or higher) and it's this fact that allows the amp, coupled with the c-lator to sound good at both low and high volumes. I am defintely going to order a Weber Michigan (or two) and see how it sounds. I think that the Alnico 1265 and the Ceramic Michigan will either sound pretty good together...or not lol. we'll see.


Gregg
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2012, 01:52:59 PM »

Any updates, Stratultra? Getting any closer to the sound you are looking for?

Gregg
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
StratUltra
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« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2012, 10:16:54 AM »

I've just had about 2 hours with the amp and I'm still struggling to get the OD right. At the moment, it's either too little gain or too it gets too fizzy. Even though the gain is set at about 6 or 7 and 10 o'clock on the back trim, it sounds at its best at those settings where there is a hair of overdrive and anymore seems to get fizzy. It seems I'm having some difficulties in dialing in that syrupy OD i was looking for. My v3 OCD sounds closer to what I'm after at the moment.

Not sure if I just need more time to tweak and wait for the circuit to break in (and speakers) or it is a limitation on the amp. Keen to get Gregg's and Stephen's feedback on this seeing that they have the same amp.
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StratUltra
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2012, 10:24:09 AM »

Hey Chris, thats some very tasteful playing there! Just got around to listening it now. In saying that, I'm not able to get anything close to the OD tones you're getting. Out of curiosity, didnthe characteristics of the OD on the amp change much after 25 hours of playtime? Sounds like it was played with some humbuckers.... Which makes me think, I've been playing the BM with my strat mostly because the 59ri needs a good setup and is with my luthier at the moment. Perhaps the BM is better suited with humbuckers?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 10:28:11 AM by StratUltra » Logged
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2012, 11:48:58 AM »

I've just had about 2 hours with the amp and I'm still struggling to get the OD right. At the moment, it's either too little gain or too it gets too fizzy. Even though the gain is set at about 6 or 7 and 10 o'clock on the back trim, it sounds at its best at those settings where there is a hair of overdrive and anymore seems to get fizzy. It seems I'm having some difficulties in dialing in that syrupy OD i was looking for. My v3 OCD sounds closer to what I'm after at the moment.

Not sure if I just need more time to tweak and wait for the circuit to break in (and speakers) or it is a limitation on the amp. Keen to get Gregg's and Stephen's feedback on this seeing that they have the same amp.

Well, I can tell you it took me a little while to get the OD where I like it. I think some of was break in time on both the amp and speaker side, some of it was Bypassing the HRM (although now i can get pretty good tones with the HRM, as well), and some was some tube rolling and changes in my playing technique. I can tell you that i keep my OD trim at about 10 or 11 o clock most of the time, and depending on how i have the drive set on the c-lator and which guitar i'm using,  the drive on the OD channel can be set anywhere from 12 o clock to 3 or 4 o clock

The OD is about 85% where I want it now, and i am pretty sure it's the speakers that are holding me back.

That said, yesterday i ordered a ceramic paper dome California and a ceramic paper dome Michigan from Weber. I listened to quite a few clips and read quite a few posts saying that these two particular speakers play well together, and that The paper dome California is like a JBL D120, but without the ice pick, and handles overdrive tones better than the original JBL, and that the Michigan is similar to the EV, either the 12L or the SRO, depending on who you ask. Long and short of being, i should have a nice bright, yet warm and rounded clean and OD tone from the California and a similar sound with the Michigan, although not quite as bright as the California, but with nice tight, full, deep bass response and a "creamy" high end when the OD kicks in; in short they should cover everything the BM can throw at it.

I think the BM likes humbuckers or high outout single coils for OD, but at the same time, my Dano sounds awesome through it. Again, i think alot of the woes i have now are in the speakers. they are kinda middy, but they also want a lot of mids to sing, and to a degree it can make the OD sound kinda generic. My old Delta 12's sound much better than the 1265's as far as nice tight deep bass and the mids are better controlled, but they are so old and worn out that they struggle to reproduce high frequencies well, and i worry about blowing em. the other 2 drivers that were in the 4x12 have dry rotted, i'm surpised these are still around.

Anyway, i think time and some tweaking will help everything come together on the OD for ya. If not, i would suggest trying different speakers. in my case i figure even if i don't like the Cali and the MI i can flip em pretty quickly, and if i do like em, i can always sell the 1265 alnicos and make someone else happy!

Hope this helps!

Gregg
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 11:50:39 AM by plasticvonaband » Logged

Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
StratUltra
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2012, 01:27:12 PM »

Thanks Gregg, it gives me some solace to know that over time it'll sound better. Oddly enough, all of my axes are low wound. The strat has some lace sensors in them at the moment, but I've managed to source some lollar blondes which I'll get then in next week. Probably won't help my cause with the lollars, but the 59ri and gretch have standard pickups in them which are low wound too.

Are you able to get Chris's tone as he's sound clip out of your BM? It's actually the tone that I'm after!

It might be a little impatient on my behalf, but I am trying to get my hands into a EVM. Might take me a while to get one used, but it just might give me the time got the wgs to break in till I make that decision. I think the tube replacement is in order rather sooner than later though, or I'll just wait till I get the EVM and order them at the same time.

Shame that the time isn't quite there now, has I have a few mates keen on checking the amp out! Hehe
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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2012, 04:53:39 PM »

Well, you can get those classic D-Style HRM sounds out of the BM, especially with the 1265's or with the speaker combo that Chris has, but it's a lil more agressive and "bigger" and "fatter" so to speak. In other words the BM is usually a lil less compressed, and less refined than the HRM or the OTS for that matter, mainly due to the design of the PI and the OD setup itself. To me the BM has always been more early Bassman/Early Marshall, especially when you drive the clean channel hard and then boost it. To me, the OD on the BM sounds much better with the HRM bypassed. It has much more of an overdriven/hot rodded Fender vibe to it than a hot rodded marshall vibe. Like Chris i found it very difficult, although, not impossible to find that sweet spot on the trimmers, and not make it sound like a totally different amp than the clean side.
One thing to remember is the HAD added the HRM to amps as a modification/upgrade AFTER they were built and it's possible that there were some amps he built with the Bluesmaster tonestack and no HRM and added then later, either as a result of  customer request or after suggesting it. Greg (boldaslove69) would probably be the best to confirm that. So bear that in mind.
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
rane008
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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2012, 05:01:36 PM »

Hey Strat,

So a couple of things:
1. I can get the sound that Chris is getting on his recordings pretty easy.  Using just a LP and the BM with the Clator controlling global.  Note, though, that it sounds like he's running a delay, so that will add to the dimensionality.  
2. Change the tubes sooner rather than later.  I'd definitely recommend an ANOS RCA in V1 for the clean side.  Makes a world of difference.  In V2 (gain channel), I've tried TAD 7025's, the JJ's, a JAN Phillips 5571, and the RI Tung-Sols.  Of all those, I like the Tung-Sol's best BUT you should only buy from a seller that tests the tubes well.  Unfortunately, the TSs are notorious for failing, but I got mine from a reputable dealer, and haven't had an issue.  Again, you could also go NOS or ANOS GE or Sylvanias in the V2.  I also have a Sovtek 12ax7-LPS in the phase inverter, and that sounds great.  Power tubes are TAD 6L6GC.  I may not change the power tubes, though, until you decide to take the amp in for a tuneup or to have someone get into the internal trims as you will need a rebias.  If you can do this yourself, good on ya.  I certainly cannot, hehe.
3. For me, making my strat sound good with the BM means I have to turn up the Input knob.  Right now, I plug into LO with the LP and HI for the Strat, unless I really want to push the preamps in clean mode.  Another option that many use is to get a good clean boost pedal (more money, I know).  The Keeley Katana and the Xotic EP-1 are known for sounding great.  I have been demoing the latter and it does live up to they hype.  Or you could get a Zendrive to use for clean and solo boosting.
4. Gregg is fully correct when he says this amp makes you learn to vary your pick attack.  So much control over the sensitivity is daunting at first, but with some practice, you can learn to tame her down some, but still get growl when you want.  In fact, for most of what I'm playing (save some alt-rock stuff), I've left the plectrum and gone back to finger picking.  
5. Just as a comparison, I'm running my OD trim at 8 or 9 o'clock, and with the above tube/speaker choices, have usable OD throughout the enter drive knob sweep, which with the PAB engaged easily gets into heavy distortion.  
6. This is just a heads up but a guy near me is selling 2x EV 12Ls for US$80/each.  Shipping would be about $60 via USPS.  I will be in the area by this guy sometime next week can could check them out, so I wanted to give you the heads up.  Here's the link:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msg/2955324899.html

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