HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

rane008
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2012, 04:08:42 PM »

Hey SUltra,

Your concern is totally understandable. From personal experience, I too had to wait for the amp to burn it before I could really bond with it. Word on the forum from other folks trends the same.

Since it's both the OD on the amp and your OD pedals, odds are that it is a speaker break-in issue. I remember having a WGS 65 with a C-tone 36w clone and that the speaker did need some time to break in (I use EVs for the OTS).

I have pretty much exactly the same amp as you minus the mods. Mine is a 100w too. Here is some basic setup advice for yah:

Set your Master/OD level above 5 and use the C-lator as a Master. Upping the signal into the power amp adds tons of sustain and creaminess to the OD. It MIGHT (not sure) also help speed breakin.

Set the Input knob at around 5 - 7. This may have been covered and you may already know this, but just in case, the input knob is your preamp vol. It cascades into the tonestack and OD channel. Setting this too low will give you grainy, fizzy OD. In order to get the sustain you want, this needs to be up there. It also warms up the cleans a lot.

Set it to the Jazz channel, engage the mid-switch. Trust me, this will get you a long way towards JM's sound.

The Presence control not only sets chime, but also attack. Fast attack when dialed up, slow attack when dialed down. This can have a significant affect on your tone depending on your playing style.

Do not set the OD trim above 11 o'clock. After that (at least on mine), the OD gets fizzy with my LP. Different with the strat, but I still don't go into any afternoon positions.

If you can, put a NOS RCA into V1 and a JAN GE Phillips into V2. V3 likes the Sovtek 12ax7LPS. The first and last you can get from Mike at KCANOS Tubes for reasonable prices (get an A(lmost)NOS RCA from him, much cheaper, still great). I like the TAD 6L6's in the Power section, but you don't need to switch out if you don't want to. Likely the JJ in V1 is causing some of the darkness in the tone--I find them darker to the ear, others may not.
Here's his site:
http://www.kcanostubes.com/
His prices may be a bit higher than other companies for NOS stuff, but I have to say that he knows his tubes, thoroughly tests, and is great at recommendations. If you were to go through him, you could get the whole setup for around $200. But again, you don't NEED to do this. And I'm sure others can chime in with other tube recommendations.

2 years in and this is what I've learned with this amp. And I'm still learning, which I think is great.


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plasticvonaband
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2012, 04:53:31 PM »

+1 to all that Rane said!

I walked out to have a smoke and realized i kinda forgot about the Jazz setting, the pre amp volume, and the presence control. Doh!!

The only other things i can add are, keep the bass dialed down lower than you might on other amps, especially with the 1265's. The BM is very bass heavy, and while my Delta 12's take all the bass in stride (i can actually run the bass around 4'o clock with those) the 1265's definitely don't appreciate it! Also, believe it or not the Deep switch can be your friend. It doesn't add more bass or fatten it up, in fact, it tightens the bass up considerably. You can really notice this effect in Jazz mode, and with presence up.

Finally, here's a tip if you plan on running with the HRM bypassed. A JAN GE 5751 in V2 works very nicely with the HRM bypassed. It has a very warm, thick, fat, smooth sound, which really compliments the less compressed OD sound you get when you bypass the HRM. Also, it slightly boosts the upper mids nicely. The practical upshot of this is that your clean sound can now sound more BF fender because you can switch the mid boost off, and back the mids down. This way you can get those typical sparkly slightly scooped BF cleans and then when you switch to the OD you will have nice fat, smooth OD with slightly boosted mids to help get that nice fat singing sustain we all want, no tube screamer required!

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

StratUltra
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2012, 12:44:51 PM »

I must say, the information that you guys gave me is worth it's weight in gold!

I've tried the suggested settings and the Fizzyness with the OD is almost all gone! Still need to tweak a little further, but it's getting close to where I'd like the OD would be. I found it a little odd, because when playing the amp today, my OD pedals seem to sound better than it did yesterday which prompted me to start tweaking the amp.

In terms of the tubes, i think I'll be looking at the suggested tubes because the JJ's are sure on the darker side, especially with the cleans. Right now, I'd like to change the pickups out of the strat first. One of the bright switches on the clator seems to remedy this, however it throws the OD off when on. Perhaps with further tweaking, I may not need to change the tubes.

My impression of the amp thus far, is that it is an amazingly complex amp with all the controls having a very close relationship with each other. Each control may seem subtle in the way it affects the tone, however a slight tweak on one, will open up a new range of tone when tweaking another control. Less is more on this amp.

Like many of you have suggested, it is going to be long journey ahead of me.... But a fun one at that

Thank you all again for taking the time to provide advice and suggestions on getting me started. Great to be apart of a forum where everyone is super helpful!


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plasticvonaband
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2012, 05:16:34 PM »

Hey Strat!

Glad you are getting closer to the tone you want! Yes indeed all the tone controls are very interactive with each other. I, much like everyone else, i'm sure learned very quickly that small changes in settings can add up to huge differences in tone. I, like you use the bright switches on my amp and c-lator, due to the fact that the 1265's roll off/disperse the highs so much. i have found that the first bright switch, the one next to the drive knob, works pretty well in conjunction with the bright switch on the amp IF you have the drive turned up past 2 o'clock. That's another thing, aside from keeping the "In" Knob on the C-Lator aimed, and using the "Out" as your over all master the Drive knob can either make your OD tone awesome, or crappy. If you have no effects in the loop, or ones that can take a higher signal level, keep the Drive knob on the c-lator at 2 o'clock or higher and you will be rewarded with great OD tone.

Here's something else about the BM that is nice... the OD tones you can by simply running the clean channel hard and using either the stock or modified MEGA PAB (22M resistor lifting the stack instead of a 68k one) or nice clean boost pedal are simply nothing short of bad ass. Very fat singing OD that is not as compressed as the OD on the drive side, and by using either the PAB or your boost pedal, you can get a lil more out of it for solos or chunkier rhythm passages. Just set your preamp volume to some where between 1 o clock and 3 o clock to taste, your master to about 4 or 5 o clock, and use your c-lator as a global master, and start playing! you can adjust your pre amp volume and tonestack the tone you want, and the whack it either the PAB or boost pedal and i guarantee you will be smiling ear to ear. I will admit that this usually sounds better through my delta 12 speakers than my 1265's... more on that in the next paragraph.

To be honest, as much as i like the 1265's i still feel that they are somewhat of a compromise and not the best match for the Bluesmaster. A few members on here tried to steer me away from em, but it was too late as i had already ordered em, so i carried on and figured i'd give them a try and break em in and see what happens. Overall i like em, but I think the main reason the 1265's aren't as good in the BM as the other OTS amps is that the BM has such a huge amount of deep and tight low and mid bass, and the overall soundstage is just way bigger, and the 1265's and some of the other british style speakers just don't have the low end response to reproduce it and they get flubby, even with the deep switch and presence on to tighten it up. I switched out the speakers again for my old Delta 12's yesterday, and despite the fact that they are right at 20 years old, dried out and a lil flat, the bass response is all there and it makes the overall tone SO much better.

My point is, that after the speakers are well broken in and you do a bunch of tube rolling and tweaking, and it still isn't quite where ya want it, don't get discouraged and sell the amp like i have seen a few guys here do. It may just be time to try out some other speakers. Even though some hardline D-style guys will say that the 1265 is the ONLY way to go, many members on this forum have proven otherwise. I know of at least one member here that used and may still be using a 4x10 cab. Quite a few BM owners have used the EVM12L, the Celestion Gold, Eminence Texas heat, Weber 12F150 or !2A150, etc.

My plan at the moment is to go with either the Weber Michigan Ceramic or the Eminence Delta Pro 12A, both of which are based off of the EVM12L (the alnico version of the Weber Michigan is said to be more like the EVM12S), and see if I can get more of what I am looking for.

Well, i made another long post Wink

have fun with the amp and let us know how things progress!!

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

rane008
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2012, 06:13:18 PM »

Gregg, a couple of quick things.

It was my understanding that on the clator, the drive knob controlled the overall master out. On mine the order of knobs, from left to right, is drive, in, out. Drive is the overall master for the unit, in sets the signal back down to avoid overdriving time based effects, and out is the output of the unit back into the effects. So drive is kinda of a volume recovery for any volume lost in the unit due to use of the in knob. This is how Nik explained it to me, but I could be wrong.

Second, if you want to try an EVM, I would just sit and wait for a used one to pop up on my local craigslist. You can usually get them for $100 or so, they are pretty fully broken in, and it's the real thing. Another great option though is the weber Michigan 15" speaker. The 15 can handle bass like no other. Just a thought.

Stephen


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plasticvonaband
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2012, 06:50:40 PM »

Stephen

Actually there is more than one way to skin the cat on this one Wink

Method 1: "drive" controls the signal going out to the effects from the c-lator, "In" controls the amount of signal returning from your effects to the c-lator, usually you would want this up full. "drive" and "in" basically control the level of signal being mixed to "Out" which controls the amount of signal returning to the amp from the c-lator. "Out" is what becomes the global master, should you choose to use the c-lator in that fashion. This is how it is laid out in the manual.

Method 2: you can also run "out" all the way up, and adjust "drive" and "in" and use the actual masters on the amp to control your volume. this method allows you to drive the PI harder, this is also in the manual.

Method 3: The method you use. Hey, if it works, and that's how Nik explained it to ya then let it ride!!

As far as the speaker goes, i may sit and wait, but knowing myself like i do, i prolly won't Grin

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

SoundPerf
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2012, 12:47:07 AM »

Just to clarify for future reference and to reiterate, for the most part Gregg's "method 1".

The "Drive" control adjusts the level of the signal coming from the preamp of the amp going to the effects input or whatever's in the Clator's loop. "IN" sets the level of the signal coming back from the effects and "OUT" is a tube gain stage that is used to make up any lost volume from turning down the volume at DRIVE or IN. It "recovers" volume, and is the global, "master" volume control for the signal coming out of the C-lator.


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Chris

Ceriatone HRM 50
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Avatar 2X12 w/WGS ET-65 & Veteran 30
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plasticvonaband
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2012, 02:53:19 AM »

Quote from: SoundPerf on April 09, 2012, 12:47:07 AM

Thanks for wording it properly, Chris. It's been a long 3 days and i really haven't slept much :


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

SoundPerf
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2012, 03:26:44 AM »

Quote from: plasticvonaband on April 09, 2012, 02:53:19 AM

Quote from: SoundPerf on April 09, 2012, 12:47:07 AM

Thanks for wording it properly, Chris. It's been a long 3 days and i really haven't slept much :

You're quite welcome, although I mostly just copied and pasted how the manual puts it. Wink

I mainly wanted to make sure that people know the "Drive" does not control the overall master volume. I feel it's easy to confuse the "Drive" knob due to the way it's worded. I built my Clator from scratch and like a big dummy never got a around to putting lables on the front, so for the longest time I needed to re-confirm just what each knob did.


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Chris

Ceriatone HRM 50
w/self built Dumblelator
Avatar 2X12 w/WGS ET-65 & Veteran 30
TC Electronic 2290
2001 PRS McCarty
2010 PRS 513 Swamp Ash
Tacoma JK50C
Seagull S12+

plasticvonaband
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2012, 04:17:27 AM »

Exactly. When I first got it, I just kept telling myself that drive drives the signal to the pedals, and out controls the overall output

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

rane008
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2012, 08:30:31 PM »

Well I'll be a sonuvabitch. Ha! I've been using the drive as the overall master for like a year now. Geez. About to fire the girl up so I'll let you know how it sounds when done correctly! Hehe.


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plasticvonaband
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2012, 08:56:20 PM »

Heh heh. Cool man! Wasn't yours sounding awesome already? It's prolly gonna sound godlike now!! Wink


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

rane008
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2012, 06:59:39 PM »

Hey Guys,

So been searching/asking questions on ampgarage.com (which most of you probably know, but is a GREAT resource) and found this post by Ayan about setting the HRM trimmers, so I'm x-posting it here:

[Having built enough HRMs, I think I have some global settings that will probably work as a starting point for someone new to tweaking the HRM beast. To me, those controls proved to be almost as difficult to tweak as the PI trimmer. Let me qualify my answer below, my goal was to try to set the HRM tone controls so that the OD would be more or less an extension of the clean sound, and not sound buzzy when the gain was turned up. If, on the contrary, you want to dial a radical overdrive with tons of low end, the HRM will probably be much easier to fine tune. Having said this:

1. The bass trimmer is 1 Meg and linear which means most of your bass will come on all of a sudden as you turn up the trimmer. I think I found my sweet spot around 90-100 Ohms beween the wiper (which is tied to the CW end) and the CCW end. Some people set this higher, but I think in most cases replacing the 1 Meg trimmer with a 500K ohm one would make the range more usable.

2. The middle control is 20K and, IMHO, it can make or break the sound of the amp. I would set mine around 8 K between the wiper (again, tied to the CW end) and the CCW end. Now, the advantage of turning the bass up from my starting point is that you will have more of a usable range in the middle and treble controls before the amp sounds harsh. The problem to me was that turning the bass higher would make the OD sound less like the clean channel.

3. The treble control will adjust the overall brightness of the sound. The trimmer is 250K and I would set mine with about 100K between the wiper (not tied to the CW end) and the CCW end.

Mind you, speaker choice will change things radically, and my settings were tamer than everyone else I ever talked to about this. I use EVM speakers, which most people consider to be bright, and in 1x12 configurations. If you use a 2x12 or 4x12 cabinet with Celestions, you will probably be able to -- and need to -- turn all trimmers up, especially midrange and treble.

Agreed that, ideally, these controls would be outside the amp so that you could go for midrange heavy to scooped tonality at will. The most elegant implementation I have seen was by Gary Johnson, since he worked towards customizing the range of the controls to where there is not a bad sound to be dialed in on his amps -- can't say the same about some Marshalls, for example.

Hope this helps a bit,

Gil]

Now, I'm no electrical engineer, but I'm guessing that a decent tech could set this up for you. Also, the goal on this was to get a smooth OD, so there you go.

Another thing: Checking the PI Trimmer is also a good idea to get your notes to bloom. Run a search on the ampgarage for this and see what you come up with.

Last, (and Gregg, this is definitely for you), if you decide to go the EV route like me, I highly recommend a Thiele ported cab. The ports allow great bass dispersion, keeping it from being boomy. I can run my Bass up as high as 5 on my BM with the neck pup of my Les Paul, no boom-boom. My recommendation re builder would be Alf Hermida at Hermida Audio. Great prices, great work, light materials.

Stephen


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rane008
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2012, 07:07:47 PM »

Edit: Here is the thread. You need to create an account, but it's not a big deal. Great guys on that forum.

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17550


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rane008
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Re: HRM Bluesmaster setup advice

« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2012, 10:32:20 PM »

Third Post in a Day!

haha

Dialing in the OD on ANY HRM is, well it's a bitch. Too true, too many options. So, let me offer this bit of advice that I just tested and found to be pretty awesome:
1. Turn on the PAB. The tonestack passthrough is best for testing this.
2. Set the OD trimmer below 9 o'clock.
3. Test all settings on the Drive Control. If they don't ALL sound good AND give you the amount of drive you're looking for, adjust the OD trimmer appropriate.
4. Repeat until you get it set to something that does work.
5. Remain Awesome.

Here's the thing: that OD trim would be better left on the inside. Like many other people, I thought you needed to set the trimmer at a respectable level to get a respectable amount of drive. Not True. You can get about as much gain out of the Drive control as you can out of the OD trim. It's become a "set and forget" thing for me now. Hope I don't bump it around on accident...

Let me know what you guys think of this.


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