Ceriatone Forum

Ceriatone => Overtone => Topic started by: Franne500 on December 08, 2008, 02:04:56 PM



Title: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Franne500 on December 08, 2008, 02:04:56 PM
Hi again,


is it possible to make a 1/2 power mod to my OTS 50 watt ?
I sometimes play small venues and the bands sound engineer is VERY scared of guitar volume......  ???





Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JD0x0 on December 08, 2008, 03:39:31 PM
i get the same problem. last gig i was in a bar with my master on 1 and i was shaking the entire bar. the sound guy there was shit, but i was way overpowering


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: hywelg on December 08, 2008, 04:21:19 PM
There are various ways of reducing your volume but still driving your amp.

1. Attenuator. I have two THD's They work well up to 8dB but thereafter the volume loss is accompanied by a loss of tone. 8dB is not that much quieter.

2. Pentode/triode switching. Not sure how much this reduces output but on amps I've tried it on it is always accompanied by a significant loss of tone.

3. Lower B+ voltage. My Fender Twin had a quarter power switch which was achieved by lowering the B+ voltage. Some loss of tone but not too bad, still way too loud though. 25watts vs 100watts but 10 watts is half as loud as 100watts so you don't get much of a benefit.

4. Powerscaling. A variable version of 3, but when implemented properly can achieve significant lowering of the volume with minimal loss of tone.Of course if you're looking to have your master at 5+ and channel vol at 7 or 8 but still only bedroom level then you will have a loss of tone. on the one amp I tried it on ( A Matamp GT1) it worked very well indeed so much so that my next kit is going to have London Powers version (recognised as one of the pioneers of this technique) installed on it. You probably need a tech to install it unless you are pretty good at the black electronic arts!

5. get yourself a low wattage amp. This probably means a Single ended 5-7 watt amp. Nik has an OTS 5w on the way so keep looking on the site for an announcement.

Some 4 valve amps have a half power switch which remove two of the 4 poweramp valves from the circuit. About a 20% volume drop and an amp that doesn't sound as 'big'.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JohnE on December 09, 2008, 12:27:01 AM
i get the same problem. last gig i was in a bar with my master on 1 and i was shaking the entire bar. the sound guy there was shit, but i was way overpowering

I will tell you how I manage, but I have to warn you, sometimes when I read what some people post on this forum I wonder if I am playing through the same amp as they are.  And don't get me wrong, these folks seem to know a lot more about amps than I do. Maybe I am not picky enough, but have not really had a bad experience with the OTS.

I play mainly in clubs that have a dance floor around 15' x 25', about ten tables (seat 50 -60) and a bar in the back. When we sound check, we set the volume so people can converse at the bar (with a raised voice, kind of shouting). I mic my amp through the mixer. I put baffles in a "v" shape in front of the speakers, mainly so I can hear the mix in the monitor (over the amp output ) and to attenuate the level somewhat. Here is the controversy: I use a TC G-sharp , in the loop with a BBE 482i and if I stay at or above 12 O'Clock on the G Sharp's level,  I don't lose any noticeable tone, but I can lower the volume somewhat . Others on this forum seem to be dissatisfied with this set-up,  but it sounds good to me and other people listening seem to think so.   I also use a couple Tube Screamer style pedals in series (usually a fulldrive 2, with an OD 9 or RT66, it really doesn't seem to matter all that much) and I can cut the volume to a point with out losing tone with the volume control on the OD pedals(and I can bring it up in a hurry by adding an OD pedal). 

We play a pretty broad mix of music and I change my guitar tone significantly,  2 or 3 times, at least, in a 10 song set. I also switch from an LP to a Strat for some sets. I use all the settings on the the OTS to get the right tone for the song being played and it would take way too much time to explain it all  but the switch settings affect volume greatly as well. It has taken me several gigs to get the settings right and I am still perfecting things. I have attached a picture of my rig, its not too great, but you get the idea. Ignore the blue box on top of the amp, that was another experiment.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JD0x0 on December 09, 2008, 01:21:32 AM
i think one of the biggest problems is right now im using a marshall 4x12 with greenbacks. its all i have but its way more than i need. i ordered a custom 2x12 which should help with the volume problem. i really like to open the master up to about 3 because thats where my sweet spot seems to be.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Franne500 on December 09, 2008, 02:16:52 AM
One will definetely be better off with a 2x12 if volume is a problem.

JohnE  - What kind of material do you use for the baffle ? Do you stille hear the amp on stage or do you have your guitar in the monitors ?

I REALLY don't like my guitar in the monitors...... Gets too spikey and strange   :)


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Alpedra on December 09, 2008, 05:21:13 AM
i think one of the biggest problems is right now im using a marshall 4x12 with greenbacks. its all i have but its way more than i need. i ordered a custom 2x12 which should help with the volume problem. i really like to open the master up to about 3 because thats where my sweet spot seems to be.

Im sure it is.. the 50W OTS is not that loud. Youll find a couple of posts here at the forum that confirm this. Im playing it through a single Celestion G12 65 speaker though. I feel that my Ceria 36 W EF86, for example, is louder than the OTS


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Franne500 on December 09, 2008, 11:25:19 AM
In my case it's our singer who complains I'm too loud... Only two decades ago people played with 100 watt Marshll stacks. ::)
I've ordered mine with a Pentode/triode switch. I suppose that will affect tone but I don't know to what extent. I'm still waiting for the amp -- it's on its way and should be here any day now!


Make the singer go out and buy himself an In Ear system !!!! :-) 




Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Jimmyd on December 09, 2008, 12:21:42 PM
Pentode/Triode switch is going to mess up your tone.  Attentuator is much much better solution.

Use the return of your FX loop to control the final volume.

50 watt OTS is LOUD.  You have to push some air to get those great tones.  I do not think there is an inexpensive way around this.

Baffles are typically made out of clear plexiglass.  That is a decent idea, more stuff to lug around though.

Using OD pedals for me with this amp kind of takes away the whole mystique.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Franne500 on December 09, 2008, 12:50:00 PM
In my case it's our singer who complains I'm too loud... Only two decades ago people played with 100 watt Marshll stacks. ::)
I've ordered mine with a Pentode/triode switch. I suppose that will affect tone but I don't know to what extent. I'm still waiting for the amp -- it's on its way and should be here any day now!


Make the singer go out and buy himself an In Ear system !!!! :-) 
It's a "she" -- nuff said. ;D

HA !!!!! Good one ! :-)


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: bobbyd123 on December 09, 2008, 01:58:59 PM

I had Nik do that mod to my 50 watt ODS,  it cuts alot of the tone out.   have you thought about putting a speaker in a box with a mic?   I've seen things like that adverised but never have used one


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Franne500 on December 09, 2008, 02:01:25 PM

I had Nik do that mod to my 50 watt ODS,  it cuts alot of the tone out.   have you thought about putting a speaker in a box with a mic?   I've seen things like that adverised but never have used one


Yeah - thought about that but I really don't like the sound of my guitar in a monitor....really ruins my mood to play.... maybe I should just accept it and start looking for an In Ear system as well  and then put the speaker in a closed flight and mike it in there....


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: hywelg on December 09, 2008, 02:28:53 PM
No, pentode is normal operation, full power.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Jimmyd on December 09, 2008, 05:17:31 PM

Use the return of your FX loop to control the final volume.

How does that work? I will also use a Kleinulator for a Holy Grail Reverb and a Fulltone Choralflange.



I'm not familiar with the Kleinulator, I use another type of Dumblelator clone and it has a "return" pot that I use to essentially set the whole volume of the rig.  I use it as the overall master.  I got this idea from reading another forum.  It isn't perfect but it does help.  I'm sure the Kleinulator works the same way.  Set your amp up volume wise where you need to be then start backing down the return.  Then start playing around with the interaction between the tone you're achieving and the master volume on the OTS until you strike a happy medium.

If I had another $500 lying around I'd plunk down for an Ultimate Attenuator.  There is no club or private event that I play that I could ever let the OTS sing above 5 on the master.  I think this is also where the amp just starts to really shine.  For this reason alone, the OTS may not be the amp for me, but I got to tell you it does have some kewl mojo and I think its a spectacular amp for the money.

I hate having alot of guitar in the monitors too fwtw.

jim


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JohnE on December 09, 2008, 05:48:05 PM
One will definetely be better off with a 2x12 if volume is a problem.

JohnE  - What kind of material do you use for the baffle ? Do you stille hear the amp on stage or do you have your guitar in the monitors ?

I REALLY don't like my guitar in the monitors...... Gets too spikey and strange   :)

OK, don't laugh but... I use the panels on our PA rack. I think it is an SKB or something. These flat, double wall, plastic panels cover the front and back of our roller rack that holds our mixer, power amp, etc. I got the idea from Joe Bonamassa who plays through (4) 100W heads and (2) 4 x12 cabs in relatively small venues at times. His baffles are clear plexi glass.

If I stand over the speakers I can hear them, but I make a point at sound check and throughout the gig to keep the monitor mix up so my amp does not overpower the mix. It is important to me to hear what is going on with the rest of the band. 

Also, if you don't like your guitar sound in the monitor there is something wrong, probably at the board. The sound at the monitor is not necessarily what is heard on the floor but it is the best indication you have when on stage.. For me it helps me keep in time, etc. So it is very important to have the monitors setup properly


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JohnE on December 09, 2008, 06:01:21 PM
In my case it's our singer who complains I'm too loud... Only two decades ago people played with 100 watt Marshll stacks. ::)
I've ordered mine with a Pentode/triode switch. I suppose that will affect tone but I don't know to what extent. I'm still waiting for the amp -- it's on its way and should be here any day now!


Make the singer go out and buy himself an In Ear system !!!! :-) 
It's a "she" -- nuff said. ;D

I play with a with female singer who kicks ass and she usually ups the volume ante with her voice alone as the gig goes on. That's why I keep the double OD pedal in reserve. As she really starts belting things out (with great musicality I must add), the drums come up and everyone has to play louder. I usually sand bag the guitar volume a little at sound check and then come up as the night goes on. If you start out too loud at sound check they cut your output at the mixer and the you can't catch up later.  My amp tech is totally against any kind of half power switch. I have a THD attenuator and it is only good for practice, it saps too much tone.  So the baffles, the G SHarp and pedal volumes are the only tools I have that seem to keep the tone with a manageable volume.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JohnE on December 09, 2008, 06:09:49 PM
Pentode/Triode switch is going to mess up your tone.  Attentuator is much much better solution.

Use the return of your FX loop to control the final volume.

50 watt OTS is LOUD.  You have to push some air to get those great tones.  I do not think there is an inexpensive way around this.

Baffles are typically made out of clear plexiglass.  That is a decent idea, more stuff to lug around though.

Using OD pedals for me with this amp kind of takes away the whole mystique.

Mystique, eh? To each his own, but I just like great tone which is why I use the OTS. My OD pedals, set usually a quarter or less on the gain change the tone minimally, but for the better. It still sounds like the OTS and no other amp, but maybe a bit fuller and tighter depending on the Guitar and pedal settings.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: wyatt on December 09, 2008, 08:34:02 PM
I had Nik do that mod to my 50 watt ODS,  it cuts alot of the tone out.   have you thought about putting a speaker in a box with a mic?   I've seen things like that adverised but never have used one

I've had that mod done as well. What I'd like to know is will the tone cut also happen if the switch is not engaged?

As noted, in Pentode mode, the amp works exactly as intended.  Triode mode just turns off part of the tube, total output is about 1/2.

In Triode mode the amp is going to seem muddier and much, much looser and softer sounding, especially any power tube breakup.  It's not just a Tonal change, but a total change in how the power amp responds, breaks ups and sounds. 


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Franne500 on December 10, 2008, 04:29:35 AM
One will definetely be better off with a 2x12 if volume is a problem.

JohnE  - What kind of material do you use for the baffle ? Do you stille hear the amp on stage or do you have your guitar in the monitors ?

I REALLY don't like my guitar in the monitors...... Gets too spikey and strange   :)

OK, don't laugh but... I use the panels on our PA rack. I think it is an SKB or something. These flat, double wall, plastic panels cover the front and back of our roller rack that holds our mixer, power amp, etc. I got the idea from Joe Bonamassa who plays through (4) 100W heads and (2) 4 x12 cabs in relatively small venues at times. His baffles are clear plexi glass.

If I stand over the speakers I can hear them, but I make a point at sound check and throughout the gig to keep the monitor mix up so my amp does not overpower the mix. It is important to me to hear what is going on with the rest of the band. 

Also, if you don't like your guitar sound in the monitor there is something wrong, probably at the board. The sound at the monitor is not necessarily what is heard on the floor but it is the best indication you have when on stage.. For me it helps me keep in time, etc. So it is very important to have the monitors setup properly



There's nothing wrong with my sound coming from the cab or at the mixer - it's just that a monitor is not designed for guitars :-)  That's the way it has always been - some people have no difficulties with their guitarsound in a monitor..... and some do :-)


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Jimmyd on December 10, 2008, 06:49:53 PM

Mystique, eh? To each his own, but I just like great tone which is why I use the OTS. My OD pedals, set usually a quarter or less on the gain change the tone minimally, but for the better. It still sounds like the OTS and no other amp, but maybe a bit fuller and tighter depending on the Guitar and pedal settings.

I admit I haven't spent alot of time with my OD pedals with the OTS because the OTS sounds so good by itself.   If  I have to, I'll bring in my pedalboard, which for the OD side of things currently contains a Zendrive, Xotic BB and RC booster.  I do think your opinion is valid.  Guess I want to keep the tap dancing to a minimum.

I know one of the reasons I hate guitars in the monitors is because I spent $$$ on my equipment for what sounds pleasing to my ears.  The monitors never sound as good as my rig and we don't typically have the time to sound check at a gig to work out EQ details.  It's mixed on the fly starting at song one.

Jim


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JohnE on December 10, 2008, 08:35:41 PM

Mystique, eh? To each his own, but I just like great tone which is why I use the OTS. My OD pedals, set usually a quarter or less on the gain change the tone minimally, but for the better. It still sounds like the OTS and no other amp, but maybe a bit fuller and tighter depending on the Guitar and pedal settings.

I admit I haven't spent alot of time with my OD pedals with the OTS because the OTS sounds so good by itself.   If  I have to, I'll bring in my pedalboard, which for the OD side of things currently contains a Zendrive, Xotic BB and RC booster.  I do think your opinion is valid.  Guess I want to keep the tap dancing to a minimum.

I know one of the reasons I hate guitars in the monitors is because I spent $$$ on my equipment for what sounds pleasing to my ears.  The monitors never sound as good as my rig and we don't typically have the time to sound check at a gig to work out EQ details.  It's mixed on the fly starting at song one.

Jim

Well Jim, you have some great OD pedals so try em, you might like em. I just sold  an RC Booster, mainly because it was too clean and did not add much. I keep coming back to same old TS-808/9 type stuff.

To me, a monitor is just a monitor. Ours are beat up, crappy, peaveys, but they work good enough. Our floor system has wharfdale mains and subs that sound very, very good and that is what counts.

I know what you means about no time for sound check. Especially when you have to set up in same space where there is a pool table that could not be moved until 8pm and your first set starts at 845 pm.  Good sound is paramount to me. Half-assed sound checks are one of my pet peeves. Fortunately, it  does not occur all that often.

Good Luck in your live tone quest.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: m0b1liz3 on May 18, 2009, 06:02:23 AM
Why hasn't anyone mentioned using 6V6 tubes in the amp to bring it down to approx 20watts?


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Pickmaster on May 18, 2009, 11:33:25 AM
6V6s where mentioned several times! You have to read old posts.
They wont work unless you modify the power section. Better to try ToneBone tube adapter and use EL84s.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Jimmyd on May 18, 2009, 12:14:21 PM
6V6s where mentioned several times!

Nik has mentioned in a recent post (that I'm too lazy to find and quote) that all one has to do is slap some JJ6V6's in and rebias.  Evidentally the JJs are robust enough to take the plate voltages. 

For everyone else out there, good ole Mr. Dumble himself has even built a couple of ODS's around the 6V6 tube.  Not many, but he has done it. 

Jim


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: m0b1liz3 on May 18, 2009, 04:53:20 PM
Nik sent me my kit with 6v6s.  The newer 6v6s can handle the voltage.   I was reading this thread since half power was something I considered at first but decided to try it this way to start.

I would be curious if there are any schematics of the ones that Dumble built himself or if there are any soundclips.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Jimmyd on May 18, 2009, 05:25:50 PM
Nik sent me my kit with 6v6s.  The newer 6v6s can handle the voltage.   I was reading this thread since half power was something I considered at first but decided to try it this way to start.


Is your amp built?  If so, how do you like it with 6V6's?  I've never heard a real good implementaion of the Pentode / Triod 1/2 power switch.  I've given up on that deal.

Jim


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: m0b1liz3 on May 19, 2009, 01:11:18 AM
I am building my amp.  It will likely take a long time at the rate I am going!


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: djroge1 on May 24, 2009, 11:06:27 PM
Has anyone here tried the THD Yellowjackets tube converter? According to their web site, they should cut a 50watt amp down to around 20w.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: hywelg on May 25, 2009, 06:15:40 AM
Has anyone here tried the THD Yellowjackets tube converter? According to their web site, they should cut a 50watt amp down to around 20w.

I'd be interested to know aswell. They are quite expensive just to try it and see.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: roadapple on March 04, 2010, 12:42:56 PM
I don't see how anyone can say that the OTS 50w is not loud enough.  I play in amphitheaters, casinos, outdoor festivals, fairs, concert venues and am constantly being told to turn down on stage by the engineers, and I've never had the main volume turned above 11 o'clock.

I play through a Bogner Metropolis Duende 1x12 cabinet with an Eminence 50w Cannabis Rex speaker and the OTS SCREAMS.  I use my Kleinulator to help balance the volume.  Tried the pentode/triode switch fix.... TONE SUCKER.  Tried a couple of different attenuators.. TONE SUCKERS....  The Kleinulator is the best thing I've used so far to "fix" my volume excesses.

Still looking though!


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: dannysgrandpa on September 27, 2010, 07:57:31 PM
I've read through all the suggestions here and the one thing I found interesting is that not one of you mentioned trying a 1x10 inch cab. My recent discovery, after being repeatedly asked to turn my amp down, (OTS 50watt w/ EVM12L 1x12 D-style), at church was that just by going to a 10 inch Jensen Jet was a very useable volume and still had all the tone. Built a D-style, closed back, ported cab for it too...sounds quite exquisite actually. My two cents. By the way I am the chief sound engineer at my church.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: JD0x0 on September 28, 2010, 02:06:15 PM
^^^ I suggest less efficient speakers. It makes a huge difference. IMO all these amps need are alnico speakers and it brings down the overal level and the sound is "less in your face." I can now open up the master volume a bit more and the tone is phenominal.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: johanare on September 29, 2010, 08:36:11 AM
Check the master volume pot. At "1" the amp shouldn't overpower a bar.

I would recommend using the Dumbleator loop as your master volume control. IMO it sounds better than lowering the amps master.


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Kitarist on September 29, 2010, 08:43:39 AM
Hm thats interesting


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: Tone Control on September 29, 2010, 02:42:50 PM
The triode switch is not as bad as those on some amps, it does affect the tone, but not as much as using loads of FX
An attenuator will also suck some tone, but the THD ones are acceptable at -4dB (stills some tone lost), which is usually enough to make a noticeable difference

Have you seen the variable-efficency speakers?
Eminence do one now: http://www.eminence.com/fdm.asp (http://www.eminence.com/fdm.asp)

I use my 50w in a home studio, it's not too loud I think unless you run the master vol past 3 o clock, and keep the clean channel clean. I think the master vol and OD trim could tame it for a function room really, unless you use big OD from your FX

Yellowjackets change your 6L6 amp to a class A EL84 amp, not really advisable if you want to keep the same tone. ToneBone adapter is the same idea
6V6 will sound less crisp I think, and less bass snap.

a portable ISO cab would make it quiet, but then you would go through the PA, not ideal if you're a tone purist, although tbh if it's multi-style function music with multi FX, maybe that could work better once you work out how to get the right result.
only the bigger ISo cabs with 12 inch speakers sound complete.

cheers
Tone


Title: Re: 1/2 power mod on a 50watt OTS ?
Post by: hans on September 30, 2010, 10:25:12 AM
What are the bias value's if you use the 6V6 tubes?