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Author Topic: how to get lower volume tube breakup with marshall models?  (Read 26030 times)
tfarny
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« on: April 26, 2009, 04:05:31 PM »
Hi, I'm strongly considering getting a ceriatone. I'm going back and forth between a Fender-type (5e3?) and one of the 18 watters. However I have the typical 'too much volume for my apartment' problem. Even with my Blackheart Little Giant (5 massive watts) I need to use an attenuator to get well into tube breakup territory. I wonder if either of these amps can be had with a 1/2 power switch to turn off one of the power tubes? Or is that only possible with a quartet of tubes? Alternatively, does Ceriatone do power scaling mods? Ideally I'd like to get a bluesbreaker tone out of a 10 or so-watt amp in a nice 1x12 combo - a mini JTM45.
Also, is there some place I'm missing that has complete descriptions of each amp? The 'original' models like the Creme Brulee seem to have no info about them beyond the user community - I don't even know what circuit that would be, and I don't think you can get a good sense of tone from Youtube.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 09:55:13 PM by tfarny » Logged
tfarny
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 09:54:45 PM »
Bump! Anybody out there?
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raistlin
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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 02:38:19 AM »
I think for the 18W TMB, there is a master volume (refer to my post), but of course it won't sound the same as everything on 10. Smiley

The creme brulee is a hyped-up Vox AC15, could be wrong, though. The 5e3 also have a nice breakup beyond 2, from what I've read. Anything above 2 will not result in a volume increase, just more gain.

HTH.
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Alpedra
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2009, 02:58:46 PM »
Even with a MV.. the 18w is not an amp I would advise to play at apartment levels. Better options out there. The 18W sounds best playing loud.. and believe me, Ceria´s 18W is a loud amp..
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Overtone + 36W ef86 TMB = Tone Heaven
lightice
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 12:31:17 PM »
You could get an 18W TMB with VVR installed. And use 97db efficiency speakers e.g G12M greenies.

The VVR will be able to lower the output down to around 3.6W RMS, which is 20% of RMS.
Which is still too loud for apartment use.

Lower efficiency speakers are a good thing as well.
But if you're looking for something even lower for bedroom playing, you might need to get something else.

E.g some AX84 builds with VVR installed and a low efficiency speaker.
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duracell
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2009, 09:53:36 PM »
I own a 18 watt tmb ef86 and I should like to have the tone at lower output level.

Apologizing in advance for the stupid questions......

1) what is a VVR??

2) I've seen the half power mod for a couple of EL34.... there's no a similar thing for a couple of EL84?

Thanks
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cmoore
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 03:28:29 AM »
1.  Power Scaling.   Check out London Power (Kevin O'Connor).  Also take a look at Brown Note.

2.   Not sure, you need somebody smarter than me.   I think the problem might be that the suppressor is tied to the cathode in a EL84, where as in a EL34 the suppressor has its own pin.   I think that is where they manipulate the power.   If you email Nik, I am sure he will give you the real explanation.

Good Luck
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duracell
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 02:01:46 PM »
The VVR seems to be much more flexible and the general opinion about it (both London Power and Hallamp) is great.

I'll go in that direction.... with the help of a nice builder friend of mine.

I'm not skilled at all on tube amps  and so on..... I'm an user only so, I've another stupid question: is the 18W a fixed bias or a cathode biased amp?

Many thanks
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 02:03:30 PM by duracell » Logged
cmoore
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 08:03:30 PM »
There's nothing stupid about any of your questions, they are all relevant.    Just took a quick peek at the layout; it is a cat biased amp.
OK, I have a stupid question.   I know absolutely nothing about these amps.   What is the difference between a Marshall 18 and a Marshall 20 watt amp?   I suppose I should just look at a few schematics.....
Perhaps they are just two completely different animals from the tone stack to the out tranny???
Thank You   
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Jennings
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 11:30:02 AM »
All good points here...now here's my little lot:

I own the following amps, and play them all in my bedroom at my parents place (i know...I'm sad and live at home still, despite being a bit old for that!):

Vox AC30 (original 1962)
18 watt Ceriatone clone
JTM 45 Ceriatone clone

I have a THD hotplate, and a Weber Mass, and a Koch Loadbox.  I use all these amps at home with the attenuators.  You get used to doing that, and it's a good compromise when you consider that you have all thes eamps at your disposal to take to gigs, practice, or use when the neighbours/parents are out!!!

I recently got a little Torres 1.5 watt amp, as I was looking into a home use amp with no attenuator.  Great amp, but far too loud to use again dimed when it's not through an attenutator.

My conclusion?  Gat any amp you love...then use an attenuator or master vol if it has one...and live with the compromise.  It's seeming ly the only way...amps and speakers will always sounds best when louder really!
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arledgesc
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 08:47:12 PM »
I just built a Ceriatone 18W TMB and wired the PPIMV control as shown in the Mods section on the main Ceriatone web site.  The PPIMV sounds great and get a great cranked tone at moderate levels. 

I did have to modify the TMB channel as there is an extra gain stage (cathode follower) to drive the tone stack.  So without the normal TMB channel master volume (PPIMV instead) there is way too much gain in the TMB channel.  I used a 7.5 to 1 resistor divider between the treble pot wiper and the PI coupling cap to bring the TMB gain down.  Now the TMB channel is more balanced and only slightly hotter than the normal channel.  Sounds great!   I have a hotplate but don't need it with this amp and the PPIMV.

Scott
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Ceriatone JTM50, 18W TMB, and C-lator
MetroAmp JTM45 and JMP50
Scumback M55 and M75 Speakers
Texass
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 11:41:32 PM »
Quote from: tfarny on April 26, 2009, 04:05:31 PM
Hi, I'm strongly considering getting a ceriatone. I'm going back and forth between a Fender-type (5e3?) and one of the 18 watters. However I have the typical 'too much volume for my apartment' problem. Even with my Blackheart Little Giant (5 massive watts) I need to use an attenuator to get well into tube breakup territory. I wonder if either of these amps can be had with a 1/2 power switch to turn off one of the power tubes? Or is that only possible with a quartet of tubes? Alternatively, does Ceriatone do power scaling mods? Ideally I'd like to get a bluesbreaker tone out of a 10 or so-watt amp in a nice 1x12 combo - a mini JTM45.
Also, is there some place I'm missing that has complete descriptions of each amp? The 'original' models like the Creme Brulee seem to have no info about them beyond the user community - I don't even know what circuit that would be, and I don't think you can get a good sense of tone from Youtube.

I just received my 18watt combo from Nik... still waiting on the cab (poor amp is sitting in a box at the moment).  I kept the Trem channel as advertised, and had a Master added to the Normal channel.  I also had the 1/2 power option added (which answers one of your questions). 
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grod915
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 08:02:10 AM »
Quote from: Texass on March 06, 2013, 11:41:32 PM
I also had the 1/2 power option added (which answers one of your questions). 

      I'm pretty sure you are referring to a Pentode to Triode switch. Not the same thing as a 1/2 power switch. A 1/2 power switch in an 18 watter would require going from push-pull to single ended output. That would be nuts.
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wyatt
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 01:22:00 AM »
Quote from: grod915 on March 10, 2013, 08:02:10 AM
Quote from: Texass on March 06, 2013, 11:41:32 PM
I also had the 1/2 power option added (which answers one of your questions).  

      I'm pretty sure you are referring to a Pentode to Triode switch. Not the same thing as a 1/2 power switch. A 1/2 power switch in an 18 watter would require going from push-pull to single ended output. That would be nuts.

Just as many companies call a triode/pentode a "half power switch" as they do turning off tubes. Many offer both options in a 100%/50%/25% single switch on four tube amps. It's not a hair worth splitting.

The fact is there are more than one (or two) ways to skin this cat and half the output wattage.
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grod915
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 09:28:31 AM »
Quote from: wyatt on March 11, 2013, 01:22:00 AM
It's not a hair worth splitting.

   Agree 100%. But the OP said:
Quote from: tfarny on April 26, 2009, 04:05:31 PM
I wonder if either of these amps can be had with a 1/2 power switch to turn off one of the power tubes? 

Then Texass said:
Quote from: Texass on March 06, 2013, 11:41:32 PM
I also had the 1/2 power option added (which answers one of your questions). 

   I just thought it best to point out to those of us who are not technically inclined that no power tubes are being shut down with the switch.
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