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Author Topic: How about a Sovtek Mig 50 Clone??  (Read 31327 times)
plasticvonaband
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« on: July 01, 2011, 01:33:20 AM »

Hey Nik, how about a nice handwired clone of the Sovtek MIg 50? I'll even send you mine and you can use it for R&D purposes  Grin


Oooo i even have some name ideas

The Ruskie
Sputnik
Red October
Rasputin
Cryllic Mystery
Glastnost
Oerestroika
K19-The Widowmaker

Actually the last one fits, due to its insane plate voltages  Grin
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 01:43:32 AM by plasticvonaband » Logged

Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 03:45:53 AM »

For all practical purposes, Nik already offers it, or at least the platform.

The Sovtek Mig 50 is nothing more than a modded Tweed Bassman.

Take Nik's 5F6a chassis and...

1.) Replace the 5AR4 tube rectifier with a SS rectifier plug.
2.) Replace V1 with a 12AX7
3.) Increase the big filter caps from 20uF to 47uF
4.) Change the Middle pot to 50K *wrong* and double the cap that connects to its wiper to .04uF *wrong*
5.) *wrong* V1A (channel 1) change the cathode resistor changes to 1K, cathode bypass  cap changes to 220uF *wrong*
Correction:  The BRIGHT channel gets a 2.7K ohm cathode resistor and /68uF (25volt) cathode bypass cap
6.) correction: The BRIGHT channel gets a 450pF cap in parallel with the resistor between the Volume pot and gird to V2

So, whats that?...11 parts?...11 parts, 4 of them filter caps, separate the 5F6A and Mig 50.  And only two parts, the cathode resistor and cap on V1A need to be added, the Bassman used a shared resistor and cap for both halves of V1.

I think Tony Bruno's amps are incredibly well built and sound great, but he isn't the most original guy when it comes to amp design, he likes the classics, and he designed the Mig 50 for New Sensor.  He did not however design the inferior, high-gain Mig-50H/Mig-50 Midget (same amp, different chassis size).

One caveat, though I fail to see anything "insane" about 470VDC on the plates, and Nik's 340-0-340 transformer should be spot on with a SS rectifier, the voltage readings in Nik's voltage chart would imply it would actually be closer to 445VDC, he's only showing 326VAC to the 5AR4 in his 5F6a voltage chart, not 340VDC).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 01:50:39 AM by wyatt » Logged
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 04:26:07 AM »

To some degree, yes it is a modded bassman, or a cross between a bassman and a plexi, but they really do have their own sound and unique voice. Also, last time I had it on the bench, plate voltage was 562 volts, which is about average for Migs, I think the high plate voltage is what gives it it's unique character
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 04:29:38 AM »

Darn iPhone I wasn't done yet Smiley as I was saying, do you reckon that if I modded the bassman as you describe (thanks for that, by the way), and swapped in sovtek spec trannies it would get me close?
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 01:23:47 PM »

To some degree, yes it is a modded bassman, or a cross between a bassman and a plexi, but they really do have their own sound and unique voice. Also, last time I had it on the bench, plate voltage was 562 volts, which is about average for Migs, I think the high plate voltage is what gives it it's unique character
Darn iPhone I wasn't done yet Smiley as I was saying, do you reckon that if I modded the bassman as you describe (thanks for that, by the way), and swapped in sovtek spec trannies it would get me close?

I was going to say say 562VDC can't be right.

But a quick look around should people getting anything from 460-560VDC on the plates and similar on the screens.  That's got to be poor QC at the transformer manufacturing or sourcing.  The transformers should be, roughly, the same as any 50-watt Marshall transformer (690VAC with CT, so at the SS rectifier the B+ should be ~475-500VDC).  What is the bias current you were measuring?

I doubt Nik would want to offer an amp that ran tubes so far out of specs, it may prove, as the original did, a warranty nightmare. 

But yes, I think the Bassman platform is a great place to start, a good 80%-90% of the amp is the same.  Here are the Sovtek schematics,...
http://www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/sovtek/mig-50.pdf
http://music-electronics-forum.com/attachments/2866d1217957863-sov_50.gif
And the 5F6a Bassman...
http://www.kbapps.com/audio/schematics/tubeamps/fender/images/bassman5fa.gif

These two Mig 50 schems vary slightly, but my breakdown came from would Steve Aloha's (blueguitar.org) version would have been reverse engineering from a real amp. You can go through and blue print them out to the Bassman and make a component for component assessment.  Some resistors values I didn't mention vary a tad with the Bassman, but are roughly within a 10% tolerance, so I figured they were "close enough for rock 'n' roll."
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 01:32:57 PM by wyatt » Logged
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 11:02:26 PM »



I was going to say say 562VDC can't be right.

But a quick look around should people getting anything from 460-560VDC on the plates and similar on the screens.  That's got to be poor QC at the transformer manufacturing or sourcing.  The transformers should be, roughly, the same as any 50-watt Marshall transformer (690VAC with CT, so at the SS rectifier the B+ should be ~475-500VDC).  What is the bias current you were measuring?

I doubt Nik would want to offer an amp that ran tubes so far out of specs, it may prove, as the original did, a warranty nightmare. 

But yes, I think the Bassman platform is a great place to start, a good 80%-90% of the amp is the same.  Here are the Sovtek schematics,...
http://www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/sovtek/mig-50.pdf
http://music-electronics-forum.com/attachments/2866d1217957863-sov_50.gif
And the 5F6a Bassman...
http://www.kbapps.com/audio/schematics/tubeamps/fender/images/bassman5fa.gif

These two Mig 50 schems vary slightly, but my breakdown came from would Steve Aloha's (blueguitar.org) version would have been reverse engineering from a real amp. You can go through and blue print them out to the Bassman and make a component for component assessment.  Some resistors values I didn't mention vary a tad with the Bassman, but are roughly within a 10% tolerance, so I figured they were "close enough for rock 'n' roll."

First of all, thanks for all the info, Wyatt, this community is awesome!

The last time i changed tubes here at home, I got 562 v on the plates, and set for 70% dissipation so i biased for 37 ma.

That being said, doing a little research and testing revealed that variation in plate voltages was a result of both poor QC AND a change in wall voltages over the years. The amp's PT was originally designed to run on 110 VAC in the US, nowadays, of course, wall voltage is around 120-125 VAC. I took the amp down to my uncles' shrimp trawler (yup he's a shrimper and i used to be to) and did some testing since, due to generating our own shipboard power, i can control the voltage and cycles. Thru a power conditioner at 120 VAC i got around 560v on the plates, at 115 VAC I got around 500 v on the plates, and a 110 VAC i got around 475 on the plates. After some reading around i discovered that amp techs were getting 7 volts on the filaments at 120 VAC as well, which can't be good for tube life. That being said, yes i agree, that Nik selling a design like that would not be a great idea Smiley

After that little bit of testing, i carried the amp down to my local music store where i bought it from back in the late 90's and a/b's it with a tweed bassman and found that there was really not that much difference between them. The main difference between them was that the Sovtek was louder,  tighter and snappier, presumably due to the high plate voltages, but tone wise they were pretty close.

I think my love for the amp is more of a nostalgia thing, kinda like how one would feel like an old girlfriend and i know there are quite a few guys like me that feel the same, and would jump at the chance to have a handwired version of a Sovtek, but in the end, it seems like that it's probably better to move on. Wink

Again, thanks Wyatt!

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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 01:32:04 AM »

That being said, doing a little research and testing revealed that variation in plate voltages was a result of both poor QC AND a change in wall voltages over the years. The amp's PT was originally designed to run on 110 VAC in the US, nowadays, of course, wall voltage is around 120-125 VAC.

Ahhhhhhh.

I never think about that with modern tube amps.  Wall voltage for most of the US has been 120VAC since long before Sovtek was built.   Someone spec'ed a Tweed Bassman PT and no one corrected the primary winding.  I suppose it's not something someone in Russia would have even known.

After that little bit of testing, i carried the amp down to my local music store where i bought it from back in the late 90's and a/b's it with a tweed bassman and found that there was really not that much difference between them. The main difference between them was that the Sovtek was louder,  tighter and snappier, presumably due to the high plate voltages, but tone wise they were pretty close.

You swap a Tweed Bassman to a SS rectifier and double those filter caps and it'll give you an instantaneous attack on the note (thanks to the SS recto), a much tighter sound overall and punchier, tighter, more prominent low end (thanks to heavier filtering).  Increase the plate voltages and it'll get stiffer and tighter as well.

NOTE MY CORRECTIONS ABOVE.   The Sovtek's Normal Channel is straight out of the Bassman.  The Bright Channel has all the changes, the new cathode resistor and bypass cap values on the Bright channels first gain stage are a Plexi.

The only hassle with modding an existing 5F6a is fitting that extra 2K7 ohm resistor and .68uF electrolytic cap on the eyelet board.  The 450pF is a small silver mica/ceramic disc and can share the same eyelets as the resistor it runs parallel too.

How about a pic?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 01:58:45 AM by wyatt » Logged
ampkits
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2011, 06:58:48 PM »

Hi

Seriously? I thought these are cheap on the used market?

if so, then no point in cloning, honestly.

We used to be able to get these for like a 100 bucks here. I dont know if they cost more these days, will check ebay..

Thanks!

nik
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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2011, 09:03:15 PM »

Hey Nik!!

I  bought mine brand new in the late 90's for around $200 or $300 or so. I've seen em going for between $300-700. I don't think they are worth that much, due to the lack of QC (the one I have is actually the 2nd one that I have owned, the first one the volume pots both died after a month). Since I see how easy it is to mod one of your bassman amps to spec, I think that may be the route to go.
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2011, 10:15:17 PM »

I haven't priced one in forever, but the QC was horrible.  Most modern buyers go out of their way to remain obvious to the issues, they just think it looks cool, remember it from high school, and love the idea of an affordable tube head.

Sovtek had to replace all the output iron in the original production because it was too small and most blew.  Then there were just continuous inconsistent issues, many of the dealers I know sold the exact same faulty amp over and over again just to have it returned...over and over again.

The Mig 60, Mig-50H/Midget, or Mig -100H were even worse, those were more complicated amps with even cheaper parts, more PCB-mounted parts, etc.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 10:16:51 PM by wyatt » Logged
wyatt
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2011, 10:17:53 PM »

I haven't priced one in forever, but the QC was horrible.  Most modern buyers go out of their way to remain oblivious to the issues, they just think it looks cool, remember it from high school, and love the idea of an affordable tube head.

Sovtek had to replace all the output iron in the original production because it was too small and most blew.  Then there were just continuous inconsistent issues, many of the dealers I know sold the exact same faulty amp over and over again just to have it returned...over and over again.

The Mig 60, Mig-50H/Midget, or Mig -100H were even worse, those were more complicated amps with even cheaper parts, more PCB-mounted parts, etc.
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ampkits
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 07:57:31 PM »



I guess so! I think I remember some weird caps from these, they used Russian old parts I think. Some are good, some are not.
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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 12:00:40 AM »

That is very true. Ironically enough mine crapped out today. Pretty sure the PT is fried. Switched from standby to operate and the whole unit started physically vibrating, smoking and blew the fuses. Time to give it a proper burial.
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 06:52:04 AM »

Forgot all about this. Here is a lil layout out i made showing the mods, for informational purposes Smiley

Gregg


* 5F6A-BassmanSovtekModsCeriatone.jpg (502.6 KB, 1735x1068 - viewed 5441 times.)
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 02:25:35 PM »

To have the Mig 50 Normal and Bright channels, ideally one would split the V1 cathodes, using the stock Bassman values for the Normal channel.  If they moved the 68K resistors to the jacks, which is a common mod to allow using coax to the V1, it gives the room on the turret board for the extra cathode cap and resistor,
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