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Author Topic: A fender style amp suggestion  (Read 3709 times)
radioegg
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« on: July 07, 2011, 02:23:39 PM »

Hi to all!

This is my first post here. I came up with an idea in the process of trying to decide what should be my first build (from before I have a marvelous Ceriatone DC30 put together by Nik, and a vintage 77 Marshall 50w Mk II Lead with master volume).

I had decided that it should be a low to medium wattage Fender style amp, so I concidered the 5e3 tweed deluxe, or the Prinzetone from Ceriatone. But as I started to look at specs for different Fender models, it struck me that why don't someone make a fenderstyle amp that has both a tweed channel, and a blackface channel?

Most blackface fenders have two channels, the normal and the vibrato. But almost everyone that plays them use only the virbrato channel, probably because the normal channel is just too similar to the vibrato, but without the effects. But it can't be hard to use for instance a 5e3 preamp in channel one, and a princeton or deluxe blackface preamp on channel two? These tweed and blackface models have a very similar output stage, all using 2x 6V6GT tubes. The rectifier tube on the 5e3 and BF Deluxe is GZ34, and the BF Princeton is a 5U4GB. But Niks Prinzeton uses a GZ34 too, so the difference can't be too big.

I am not an amp tech, so there might be this would not work for a reason that I don't see. But I think it's a very good idea to make an amp like this. And Niks prinzetone have both the brown- and blackface voicing, so with an added 5e3 channel, it would cover all the classic fender eras in one amp!

To take this a bith further:
So let's say that Nik takes the 5e3 deluxe, and his prinzetone and combines them in a two channel amp - What I'd love to see in addition was that the output stage was set up with four 6V6 tubes, or two 6L6, to double the wattage and then add a half power switch. This is an excellent option, one of the great details on my DZ30. I also love the bypassable master volume on that amp. And if you add a ABY switch too, then we fave a fender style amp that is really cooking!


So Nik, and you other folks: What do you say? Can it be done? Pleeeease say you will make a kit like this, and I promise to build something else in the meantime :-)
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T Wilcox
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 02:53:31 PM »

Well hate to be the one to tell you but Nik does not sell kits anymore Cry

http://www.ceriatone.com/tlbrBorderSub/Kits%20Announcement%202011.htm

You may find what you are looking for with a Weber kit although I've never used Weber, I know they have a few Fender type kits

Good luck

Todd
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wyatt
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 07:00:03 PM »

There are lots of mods to revoice the normal channel of a Fender BF more Tweed-esque.  A Google search should turn up plenty, and they aren't difficult.

But, ultimately, it's as much the Tweed approach top power supply and power amp that define them as it is their tone stack.  The Tweed's use weak filtering and lower voltages keep a looser, less focused, less defined, boomier tone, with a much less defined and "softer" power amp overdrive.   

The heavier filter and higher voltages of  FB are going to keep an amp very tight and focused, regardless of the preamp.  This is actually fine on stage where you need cut, it it just won't feel or respond like a real Tweed, it won't sag as much, it won't be as touch responsive, it won't seem as loose and organic, etc.
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radioegg
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 05:07:55 AM »

@ T Wilcox: Oh, that's a pity... But I am happy that it's temporarily. I really hope Nik start selling kits again, maybe he should narrow down the range of kits, selling just a few builder friendly kits. Or maybe he could do like cicuitrix: They sell kit instructions. Look at http://www.circuitrix.com

As for all the time that goes away to support, I guess that could be managed with a good forum. All support at BYOC is done through the forums: http://buildyourownclone.com/ - Nik don't have to do this himself, I am sure that there are a lot of builders and Ceriatone fans that will be happy to offer their help in a forum.

@ wyatt: So what you say, is that it can be done within the frames of a normal blackface, but the tweed channel would not that tweedish after all?

Anyway: I would like to see Nik expanding his Prinzetone amp with a tweedish channel, double power, half power switch, and a master volume that could be bypassed in DC 30 style. I would definately buy an amp like that, as it would be the ultimate fender amp...
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wyatt
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 09:27:15 AM »

@ T Wilcox: Oh, that's a pity... But I am happy that it's temporarily. I really hope Nik start selling kits again, maybe he should narrow down the range of kits, selling just a few builder friendly kits. Or maybe he could do like cicuitrix: They sell kit instructions. Look at http://www.circuitrix.com

As for all the time that goes away to support, I guess that could be managed with a good forum. All support at BYOC is done through the forums: http://buildyourownclone.com/ - Nik don't have to do this himself, I am sure that there are a lot of builders and Ceriatone fans that will be happy to offer their help in a forum.

I would guess than up as many as 75% of people who try and build an amp kit really aren't up to doing it right.  If someone doesn't understand what each component in the amp does, they will have no way of troubleshooting it. As Ted Weber used to say, these aren't Lego sets.  And a BF Reverb combo is a very complex build, I couldn't see Nik even offering a kit (along the same lines I couldn't see a kit offering for something high gain).  Even when the kit works , I look in and see all sorts of lead dress and heater routing issues and the builder's eyes just glaze over when I try to explain whats wrong.  They just don't get the concept. 

And I think this is one of the reasons it is so taxing on many people who offer kits.  Ceriatone isn't the first one to drop Kits, Metro dropped them for the same reason, and I've head rumbling from a few others that suggest they may drop them as well.  I get the feeling *if* Nik ever offers has bare bones kit it's just to supply the amp-unique parts that many DIY can't afford to have machined in small quantities.

@ wyatt: So what you say, is that it can be done within the frames of a normal blackface, but the tweed channel would not that tweedish after all?

Anyway: I would like to see Nik expanding his Prinzetone amp with a tweedish channel, double power, half power switch, and a master volume that could be bypassed in DC 30 style. I would definately buy an amp like that, as it would be the ultimate fender amp...


Well, you can get the grind and the midrange of the Tweed, but it's always going to be stiffer/tighter and more preamp-based overdrive.  It'll be more Brown Fender.  Which is exactly what you get with the Brown side of the Prinzetone. 

The one you create a swiss-army amp, the more you compromise the circuits.  It's better to just have a BF clean amp and a seperate tweed dirty amp that is roughly half the wattage (it'll make up the difference when cranked into peak wattage)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 05:57:08 PM by wyatt » Logged
radioegg
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 10:11:31 AM »

OK, Wyatt, you make some good points here. But then I need to go back to pondering again: I am determined to build an amp, but wich one... I admit beeing a novice, but at least I know how to solder, and I have the patience to do proper researching, I can build slow, AND I have a member of my band that is skilled with electronics, so I am confident that I can put a 5e3 or some other "simple" amp together with a good result.

Regardless of my own building, i will get more Ceriatones too, I am so pleased with my DC 30, that I have a plan for getting one amp every year. I think the Prinzetone is first in line. I have not told this to my wife, but why would she need to know...
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ampkits
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 05:32:49 PM »

Hi guys!

Thanks! As for kits, thats true indeed. Maybe it'd be better if focus is to release more and more amps, instead.

Maybe try to focus on procurement as well, to keep costs down, and ultimately, prices.


thanks!

nik
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