Hi,

Before I send any pics, I'm going to take to a guy who, I believe, is a lot better.

I just didn't want to go there because it's a lot farther.

Buzz

Hi,

Thanks for all the informative replies. Yesterday I took it to a shop that deals with PA systems and such,  Today they called me and asked me to come pick it up. They can't fix it. They said there is something inside, or it may need parts they can't get, or something. I couldn't understand them completely because of their English abilities.

I just hope they didn't help themselves to any parts that they may have considered of value. That kind of thing happens in Thailand.

My next choice is a guy that lives at quite a distance from me that runs a better shop.

After that it would be getting on a plane and flying to Bangkok and back for a trip that would be fairly expensive.

My next choice would be to send it back to Malaysia for a round trip. Thailand will make me pay full new item price for import duty. There's  no such thing as sending things out of Thailand for repairs because they have so many 'experts' here.

Oh Well,

Thanks,

Buzzer

Thanks for all the help. Still don't know what's wrong - I'll have some guys in Thailand look at it today or tomorrow.

Buzzer

Hi,

Hardly used the amp. Bedroom only.

Quiet means turn the master to 10 and get less than 3 out of it.

Was put together by Nik and crew.

Will have to await  pics - I'm about to go to sleep.

Thanks!

Jeffrey

Hi,

I turned my OTS on yesterday, and it lacked volume. I changed speakers, cables, and guitars. All had the same result. It had no oomph!

Can anyone suggest the nest step in troubleshooting what is obviously a troubled amp?

It's only a couple years old, and hasn't had much 'hard play'. I doubt i could have blown the power tubes yet, and this happened suddenly, like between one short session and another. Any info provided would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Buzzer

Hi,

I love my OTS sounds, but, because of proximity to my neighbors, I can't get the tone I want at the low volume I need to both record, and keep peace with the neighbors. I asked Nik if the "5 watter" was in the works, and that I would, without question, plunk down bucks for a pair (that I could then record in stereo). This was the only email I ever sent that didn't get a reply. I took that as a 'No'. So I guess the "5 watter" is an abandoned project? Anyone know anything contrary to that?

In the meantime, I have a power soak device that has the reputation of being one of the better ones. It's an old, "Rocktron Juice Extractor, that, I guess Allan Holdsworth had something to do in the making or, as his name is on it.

This would do the trick, but I wonder if it is safe. Or should I make a large investment in earplugs to pass out to my neighbors?

Thanks - Buzzer

Hi again!

I don't know if y'all realize how much time I put into this issue. I need some effects to do some recording, and I have an OTS without effects, and a POD with too many.

What I want the point of this post to center around is the 4 Cable Method (4CM) that is employed by the G-System and the Boss GT-10.

It seems there are only two posters that have had any experience with the OTS + Kleinulator and this setup, Mitch with the TC Electronic G-System, and poticasoti with a GT-10. Both had bad experiences. I don't know if Scott (poticasoti) was able to make his work eventually.

The reason I get into this again, is I just realized it will take me upwards of $1,600 to have a G-System delivered to Thailand, and I can buy a GT-10 in Bangkok for about $510 total. The TC has some features I really like, but I can get by with the GT-10,

So I decided to buy the GT-10 next week in Bangkok.But doing a search on it in the Overtone forum, no one has any good things to say about it. Bad sounding, or sucks tone. What's wrong with this picture? Also, because of the way the search engine works, you can't search the numeral 4. So there may be more people who have used the 4CM 4 Cable Method, but I can't search it. I only find responses from Mitch and Scotty.

Now I got a Kleinulator, with the OTS because it seemed like a good thing. But there are some effects in the chain that should go before the pre-amp and others in the loop. If I can't get this downfall of the 4 cable method figured out soon, the only thing I can think to do is buy at least a compressor for use up-front, and put something like a G-Major 2 in the effects loop. Still can't do everything I want with that setup, but it will probably get me by.

Unless any of you have any answers. Why would the 4 cable method behave badly with a OTS + Klein? If any of you could read the PDF (downloadable from my post above) or answer the 6 technical questions I posted earlier, it might help considerably. The PDF is theoretically dealing with configuring the G-System, but it goes much further than that, and I highly recommend reading it.

I asked those 6 questions to Nik over a week ago, and am surprised at his lack of response. He's far and away one of the most responsive emailers I've encountered in 13 years of emailing. I also sent a PM to Mike Klein, but haven't received an answer yet.

At any rate, I have spent probably upwards of 80 hours on this. It took me about 8 minutes to decide to buy the OTS. I'm suffering from MFX burn-out syndrome!

Thanks again,

Buzzer

Hi,

Thanks, y'all for your input. I've made available the PDF I received from Laird, who has a lot of familiarity with the G-System, and a lot more expertise in electronics than I.

He described his "White Paper" as a work in progress, and is open to corrections/advice, etc. Though it discusses how to get the G-System configured, it has a lot to say about several things. I found his discussion of loops to be informative, in fact, rather eye opening.

He said I could make it available. I guess I should say that I found it by looking at the TC Electronic forum, sub-forum G-System.

One person commenting on the G-System manual said, "If you do decide on a G, throw away the manual and read all of Laird's golden info - he really deserves to get free TC products for life!!"

I sent a PM to Mitch, and others asking them to read this white paper. The G-System still seems like my best option, the next would be a Boss GT10, or something I'd solely run in the fx loop, and maybe a compressor pedal and volume pedal into the OTS. I have to make an order from W. LA Music this week that I've delayed too long already. The only variable is whether the G-System is part of the order or not.

Also, if there are any other user's of the G-System with the OTS what do you like and dislike about the combination?

Anyway, take a look at the PDF, and post any comments you have.

Thanks again,

Buzzer

Hi again,

I agree with what has been said about just use your ears and play and don't worry about the technical details.

Checking out numerous devices is darn near impossible. 1. I live a long way from Bangkok. 2. The MFX units take a great deal of time to even get around, let alone get the sound you want. This is a bit difficult in a guitar store, given ambient noise and time constraints.3. Even if it was possible, the questions I have would require my lugging at least my head and a guitar around (forget the cab).

I think the G-System is the most flexible system out there, plus, with the best reverbs, and delays - effects I'll actually use. But I have to know if there is an inherent flaw in the way it will work with the OTS. Mitch seemed to think so, and his understanding of electronics is overwhelmingly greater than my own.

I was thinking about sending a PM to Klein, because he'd have to know this stuff. The guy I mentioned before, Laird, has been fooling around with the G-System for years, and has a grasp on the electronic issues that confront the user of the thing. That's why 1. I asked the following questions regarding the specs on the loop. Heck, at this point, I don't know if it's a serial loop, or a parallel loop. I don't know what effect the Klein has on this either. So, if anyone knows, please inform me.

So, I hate to ask this question again, but if someone knows the answer, or where I can dig it up online, please let me know. If you can provide the following information about the OTS, it would be most useful:

1) Loop topology (parallel, serial, switchable?)
2) Loop Send Nominal Output Impedance (in ohms...)
3) Loop Send level (+4db?, -10db?, switchable?)
4) Loop Return input impedance (in ohms or k-ohms, or M-ohms)
5) Presence of a gain makeup stage at the loop return.
6) Nominal Input impedance of the main input

Thanks!

Buzzer

I've thought a lot about this, and my first cab i'm going to build is the 2X12. This one is for a project - down the road - but maybe not far down the road.

Regarding the 2X12 (w/ Celestion 25w greenbacks, I still want to make a race-track (eliptical?) shaped port. The closest example I found here: http://www.hermidaaudio.com/
Here's some pics (I'm mostly interested in the back. The front view, I'd like to have some grill, or screen cloth to protect the speakers a bit.

I would also probably find a way to close the back when I want to - for some dumb reason.

Anyway this would be a great cab with nice speakers, and probably loud enough for me.

However. I've spent a lot more time since Pickmaster provided all those details about his Thunderbox, and experimentation with it, and I got to thinking (that's always trouble). And I can use something like that, but I could really use an isolation cabinet in my house, too. Then I got to thinking, why not have a convertible? The Thunderbox is already miced, as would be the isolation speaker. So all that would be required would be (for a less isolated version) would be some doors, or a cover. For more isolation, a complete outer box. I was surprised at one that I found on the net that, in a way, looks a little like the Thunderbox. It's called the Demeter SSC-1 Silent Speaker Chamber. Gee, it's not called a cabinet anymore, but a 'chamber'!http://www.demeteramps.com/products/cabinets/ssc1.html

Anyhow I haven't figured out how to put these photos in the right place on the page, so they'll end up grouped together at the bottom, I guess.

Let me know what your thoughts are!

Thanks - Buzzer

From bluesfendermanblues:
I know already this is going to be a long post - hang in there!

Strangely, the exact opposite is the advice from a guy that has researched the G-system extensively. He posts quite a bit on the S-System forum sub-forum at tc electronic forum. He admits the G-system is not a plug-and-play device. Far from it. He sent me a 30+ page PDF that he wrote to explain the G-system better than the manual. I'm only about half way through reading it, but here's a quote that he includes from Mesa about using their parallel effects loop.
The writer, Laird, goes on to add:

Now, both my OTS and Klein are pretty much brand-spankin' new. The last thing I want to do is ditch the Klein, which cost me good money, but, truly, the last thing I wish to ditch is tone. As I'm only half way through his PDF, I can't comment too much, but, basically, I believe what he's saying is that using the serial type connection is OK, or some parallels are OK but have to be 100% wet (supposedly you'd adjust this down at the EFX unit). On the other hand, there seems to be a problem of cross-bleed, that can make the G-system sound bad if not corrected.
(I'll read the rest of the article and try to report a summation of the problem tomorrow) But, so far, it appears that the author is saying that in a parallel loop you've got 2 signals wet and dry, and the wet comes through after a minuscule delay. This minuscule delay is undetectable to our ears, but it comes up with all kinds of phasing, and artifact problems. I'll try to clarify tomorrow. Here's your chance to tell me I'm full of it!

Laird asked me about the OTS configuration, I guess he's spent so much time troubleshooting the G-System that he knows questions to ask that I couldn't even imagine.I sent these questions to Nik, but he is (uncharacteristically) slow to reply. Still less than a day. Sorry for my own personal rush to resolve this, my friends have one ready to send me, and I hate to delay them while I figure this thing out.

Anyhow - Laird's questions:


Can any of you answer these questions? I'd certainly appreciate it. If anyone wants a copy of that PDF, please request it, and I'll try to get permission from the author. I guess I'm in OTS OverTime!

Thanks,

Buzzer

Thanks Mitch!

I've heard this "G System Sucks Tone" several times. If you search that on google, it appears many times. There is not doubt that this is something people are experiencing. However, there are many people out there that are saying, basically, that it's a tough box to set up right. I believe you're supposed to use balanced cables, and everything has to be just so. I've heard stories from people who took months to get it right, but finally succeeded. And the opposite is also true as in one story from a player that discovered after using it for a long time that his amp came alive when he took the G-System out. The way he put it, I don't think he spent a lot of time troubleshooting after discovering the difference, but that might have changed things. Possibly not.

Similar things are said at the Jem website (an Ibanez forum), and it sounds like this box needs a lot of troubleshooting if it's not working right.

This may make it unavailable for me. As I live in this unspeakably wonderful country - Thailand - unspeakable because if I say anything bad about the place they might kill me or throw me in jail, that is. Well, I got a guitar midi converter from West LA music. I paid a lot for shipping (bundled with other items, and about $100 (20%) import taxes. I didn't even have to open the box. It rattled. For grins, I checked it out, but nothing. I had the choice of paying $100 in customs fees and driving 4 times to a govt. office about a half an hour away, and getting photos and documents, and yada, yada, yada. All so they wouldn't charge me customs taxes the second time! Or paying $100 customs taxes (again) and having it sent again.

I don't want to pay about $250 extra for import duties + shipping, just to find out the thing doesn't work. The thing's expensive to begin with.

I live far from the jewel of the orient - Bangkok - where I can test listen to the RP1000, and GT10, but I don't want to take my amp, speaker, and guitar there to do it. I can't get the thing from Guitar Center on 30 day approval here. So the last thing you said- about checking everything in my signal chain - isn't an option. Now that Bush is out, I'm planning on leaving this paradise to go back to where I've spent most of my life - Hawaii - but even there, unless you live on Oahu (which I won't) The music shops are not full of gear options.

One bottom line for me is an Editor program that works on the Mac. The Rocktron sounded like a good box until I found out no editor exists. I haven't heard much good or bad about editor software for the GT10 or RP1000. Apparently it works well for the G-System, but might not be available yet for other devices in the TC Electronic G-String series.

Bottom line also is that none of these boxes do all I want them to do, with the possible exception of the G-System, but I'd hate to purchase a thoroughbred and find out it's just a dog.

Thanques,

Buzzer

Hi,

I posted a much, much longer post at the Stompbox forum. If you feel inclined to check that out.
http://forum.thestompbox.net/showthread.php?t=8335

In getting my studio up-and-running, especially the guitar/amp part. By far the hardest decisions have been how to get some nice effects that will work well with the OTS and Klein.

Part of it is a matter of expense - the best MFX box for the job is more expensive than the OTS w/ Klein.

What I want is something that will segregate the effects into those used before the pre-amp, and those used in the effects chain. I'm also not at all interested in MFX boxes that have models, but fortunately, some boxes don't have models, others have ways of bypassing them.

In looking at these units. The TC Electronic G-System stands out for versatility, and cost. The Boss GT10 seems to have the ability to run pre and post, through a 4 cable system, but I heard this, and can't actually see it in the manual.

If you were going to divide your signal chain like this, what, in your opinion, should go before the pre-amp, and what should go into the loop? I can't think of much I'd want before the pre-amp. For sure compressor, possibly EQ - if needed.

Almost all the boxes I've been looking at want the amp in their loop. I want them in (or before the OTS loop).

Now the G-System is way expensive, especially because I have to add another $300+ USD to get it sent to Thailand. Technically, I could buy a cheaper box, put it in the effects loop, and run a compressor as a single pedal into the Amp's input.

What do you guy's do? Buying individual stomp boxes - especially if you want the really good ones - is even more expensive than the G-system. Other units I've been looking at are the Digitech RP1000, the Boss GT10, and the TC Electronic Nova System, and G Major 2. Aside from the GT10 all these want your amp to be in
their loop.

Any suggestions? I'm all ears!

Thanks - Buzzer

Hi,

Thanks for the updated pics. If a picture is worth a thousand words, you said a mouthful!

Did you maintain the port facing the floor, or did you patch that over?

I really would like a speaker cab that is a little (or even a lot quieter) because, while I'd like to, living where I do in Thailand (far from any of the places where playing is easier - like Bangkok, Phuket or Pattaya) I just Don't Get Around Much Anymore. In fact I missed the Saturday dance.

Also you clarified what mics you had in the Thunderbox.

Thanks - Buzzer

Never fear Skydog!

After the OP I was embroiled in helping a friend get back into Thailand, who had been blacklisted from here because his name 'sounded like' another man's name. I guess that Thai immigration has a penchant for rhymes. But that's too much stupidity to deal with as this is OT anyway.

Anyhow, I couldn't respond to Pickmaster until now. Thanks Pickmaster for the sage advice. A lot of that makes perfect sense.

If you could provide a photo after the modifications, that would help - as we all know a picture is worth a thousand words.

The way the cabinet is originally designed, it's going to have good stage coverage anyhow, so the porting is mainly to diminish the bass response, correct? There would be no problem putting the 1 X 10 cm. ports in the front, as far as I can see. It wasn't clear to me if you did that as well, or just enlarged the port on the bottom. Could you clarify?

I don't have any kind of vast knowledge about acoustics, and I want to build a couple nice speaker cabs for the 3 speakers I have on hand. The Thunderbox sounds like a good option for my EV-M12L. It's nice that you are experimenting on the thing to tweak it to the right specifications. I want to have a pretty good idea of how it's going to be built before I start. Duh!

The idea of a bottom port kinda threw me though. From my experience with some speakers and subwoofers, the conventional wisdom is that they shouldn't be placed too close to a wall. Well, what's a floor? Just a wall lacking an upstanding character. It seems like the Thunderbox is porting to a very solid wall instead of into the room. That was the one thing that bothered me about the Thunderbox.

Do you have any more to say about the on-Axis, off-Axis nature of Larry Cooltone's speaker? - Chances are it's an EV-M12L. Mine would be handling far less wattage as the overtone isn't even 50 (I forget the exact wattage). Also, any clues as to how this speakers directionality would work with, or against it when placed in a Thunderbox type configuration?

This is probably going to show my ignorance regarding the mechanics of sound, The phasing must have been in the more audible upper mid range, or the egg crate foam wouldn't have helped much, IMHO. I'm wondering if diffusion might be better in this case than absorption?

Regarding mics - it looks like 2 Shure SM-57s. Is that right? I only have 1 of those, which is not available as I use it for blues harp. I can experiment around when I get the cab made. I have a weird mic that would be my first choice for experimentation. It is an Audiotechnica AE2500, it's supposed to be a kick drum mic, but, like I said, it's weird. I've used it for a lot of things because it is a dynamic & condenser mic all in one body. Thus the one signal is quite different from the other, and needs to be treated as two mics in stereo, and EQ for each is different, of course. I know how much you guys like pictures, so I'll go find some on the internet.
Well, I'm back! But not knowing how to manipulate the photos, WYSIWYG. Sorry if they're too big, or small. My last post, the pictures came out really small.

This is just one of several projects I'm into to upgrade my OTS. FWI, the others 1.Mentioned before - a 2X12 cab for the greenbacks. 2. I really need some basic effects (but good ones). 3. Upgrading almost all my guitars with new pickups. 4. Bringing my long-dormant home studio into the 21st century. So I may be asking advice in this and other forums regarding all this madness.

Thanks for listening to all this drivel.

Buzzer