Ceriatone Forum

I'm struggling to figure out which one to get. I don't even know whether to get the Special or HRM. I play in a cover band doing a lot of classic rock (heaviest would be ACDC but it doesn't have to be that accurate tone wise) so I'd need to be able to do more than the jazz blues every clip seems to be. I'm leaning towards the Standard OTS but have also looked at the HRM BM.

The smooth and creamy OD that sustains is the most important thing. I have a DRRI and love the cleans on it, so anything similar to that would be great.
I like the idea of the internal OD EQ trimpots on the HRM BM but the cleans and OD don't seem to be as good as the Special. I usually play a Strat with a humbucker in the bridge.

http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1117.0

here is some info on the different models, and if you search the forum you will find a lot more. Contact Nik and let him know what tones you are after as well before ordering as he may suggest a particular model for you as well!


Todd

more info

FYI
•   On HRM, clean and OD channels have separate master volumes
•   On Non-HRM, they share an master volume.
•   When you add a Dumbleator, the return line is the master volume.
Non-HRM’s come to harmonic feedback easily.  Mid-heavy.   Rich w / sustain.  Emphasis on mid harmonics.  More singing sustain.  OTS will sound a little warmer on the clean side compared to S&M.
HRM’s – more dynamic and percussive, very touch sensitive.  Less OD.  Not gritty or buzzy.  Have internal trimmers for TMB.  HRM series are 90s.  The HRM is much gainier and tighter on the OD
Overtone Special
•   Thicker and warmer than S & M
•   Less O.D.
•   Smoother and deeper sounding.
•   OTS will sound a little warmer on the clean side compared to S&M.
Overtone Special S & M
•   Much brighter OD and more aggressive.
•   A rock machine, but not as good at cleans.
Overtone Special 183
?
Overtone Special FM (#102)
•   Skyliner clean tone stack with a Non-HRM OD.
•   More “Chime y” clean tones.
•   More focused OD with a almost horn sound.
•   Very bright amp.
•   Needs a Dumbleator

Overtone HRM
•   Stands for Hot Rubber Monkey
•   Has a second tone stack just for the OD channel.
•   Marshally
•   Very refined
•   More compression
•   Smooth singing OD
•   6L6’s
•   Jazzz fusion but can get dirty
Overtone HRM Bluesmaster
•   Early raw Fender / Marshal tone on steroids.  Like a Bassman
•   Great Cleans (sing and sustain)
•   Less smooth OD and much less compresed than above.
•   OD is a bit raw and edgy.  Meaty and fat.  Lot’s of gain can be had.
•   Cleans are very girthy and has more bass.
•   Less clean headroom than all other OTS amps.
•   Needs Dumbleator.
•   Great blues / rock / jazz
•   More cord friendly and string definition.
•   Bluesmaster version has a smoother overdrive, but cannot be as
aggressive as the regular HRM.
•   excellent cleans, but the OD isnt gainy but more articulate.
Overtone HRM MK II
•   A bit more hair on both channels than the FM 50.
•   OD is crunchier and more compressed than FM.
•   EL34’s
Non HRM Classic EQ
•   excellent cleans, but the OD isnt gainy but more articulate.Great sustain
•   Singing OD
•   Very touch sensitive and not much compression.
Non-HRM Skyliner EQ (Regular Overtone)
•   Little less Fendery.
•   EQ is a little more Dumbley
•   Better cleans than above.Great sustain.
•   Better string to string definition.
•   The Presence is focused around the high freq. only.
-HRM Skyliner Non EQ
•   Same as above, but gain stage is not classic Fender.
•   More headroom, definition and punch.
•   More alive cleans and smoother OD.
•   Small bit of compression.
•   Touch sensitiveOn HRM, clean and OD channels have separate master volumes
•   On Non-HRM, they share an master volume.
•   When you add a Dumbleator, the return line is the master volume.
Non-HRM’s come to harmonic feedback easily.  Mid-heavy.   Rich w / sustain.  Emphasis on mid harmonics.  More singing sustain.  OTS will sound a little warmer on the clean side compared to S&M.
HRM’s – more dynamic and percussive, very touch sensitive.  Less OD.  Not gritty or buzzy.  Have internal trimmers for TMB.  HRM series are 90s.  The HRM is much gainier and tighter on the OD

Thanks they helped a lot. I'm now considering the normal HRM because of the separate EQ and volume for each channel. Also is the OD trim useful? You say it's marshally - can you dial in the same thick and creamy OD or does the Special simply do this better?

Separate EQ is nice but just know that it is set it and forget it. Once inside a cab it can be a real hassle to take everything apart just to adjust the bass on the OD. But I guess its better to have the option rather than none at all.
FWIW I have both a FM50 ( non-hrm ) and a HRM MK2 , I like them both equally and do not miss having separate EQ for the FM50 at all.
I cant comment on the standard HRM but I will say that when playing either the FM50 or the HRM MK2 with my 2550 it is very apparent that neither are at all Marshally compared to a Marshall, which is why they work so well together with a dual Marshall/Dumble rig. The EQ is like this ^ / V
Todd

Do you find you have to change the EQ between clean and OD. How does the HrpRM clean compare to the non?

No, I have no complaints regarding the transition between the clean and OD of my FM50. On my HRM I spent hours trying to get the clean and OD to match so when I switch over there isn't this big jump in bassiness and what not.
Both of my OTS's cleans are very similar, the FM maybe has a little more chimeiness
for lack of better word.

Either way whichever OTS you choose will be a good choice, they are all great

Todd

I'm going to being using it live so I won't have time to mess with the EQ between songs and it's annoying having to change the levels. So what was the result of your tweaking? That it didn't really matter? What about the inherent difference between clean and overdrive EQs ie. mid scoop vs lots of mids?

I think I definitely prefer the OTS overdrive. Do you notice that much difference between yours? Isn't there a mod to give you a switch to bypass the tonestack so you can get the same OD as the OTS? Though I guess the master volume and internal EQ won't work if you bypass it...

Excellent summaries, just one issue:
I have a BM50, which is probably my joint favourite amp out of 20 boutique amps I have played extensively
I then tried it with a C-Lator, and it did nothing extra for me at all. I appreciate the Dumbleator may be a golden ingredient for others, but for me the BM50 is perfect as-is
(Caveat - I am not looking for heavily-saturated lead tones, clean and breaking up is my sweet spot)

The BM50 with a handful of boutique OD pedals must be the most versatile amp I have ever tried, but it will never be a heavy rock amp the way I use it (clean as poss, little touch of OD on the OD channel), However, I cannot think of any valve amp that can cover as much range in styles as this amp with 3-4 favourite pedals of your choice

Cheers
Tone

Nice post Tone Control.
Its hard to find clips of the Bluesmaster.  I had a hrm 50 watt and thought it was incredible but the clean channel wasnt for me.
SO I may get a Bluesmaster. I need to get that hendrix, or at least a touch of it on the clean channel with slight a return  breakup if 6 was 9 as in little wing or bold as love with a univibe....and get some of that Dxumble sound when Im in that mood, cause I cant aFord robben  two amps. Do ya know waht im saying?

Fatfretter

I'm not a Hendrix expert, but the BM50 covers John Mayer's range well (lots of lovely 60s fenderyness). I assume you'd need some modern take on Fuzzfaces to cover everything
I use it with a Providence SOV-2, Lovepedal Eternity Sunburst, Zendrive 2, Centaur Klone, and a BJFE Honeybee clone, these cover most of my range and work really well with the amp and a strat. I was 10 years cold turkey with no OD pedals before last year, so I am fussy as hell, and these work extremely well with the BM50 running clean or lightly saturating

I had a luthier who has played professionally for years round tp my place, he tried all my amps with no pedals, and chose this as the best over 2 Matchless, a Victoria, a Carr, etc.
I have owned 7 Ceriatone amps, and this is the best so far
I'd say the Matchless and Victorias match it for sound quality, but are less versatile

My advice is buy a BM50 or 100 (the 100 really is switchable to 50W without triode mode, and I don't believe OT saturation is part of the sound anyway)
The triode mode sounds weak to me. I much preferred it over the OTS, I assume the HRM would be like a tamed OTS

My overview overview was derived by going through all of the pages in the Overtone section of the forum and writing down anything about basic information and tones.  My BM 50 is still yet to arrive.  Another 2 weeks.

I did order the C-lator built into the cab from Nik.

I agree with Tone Control on all counts. You can indeed get early Hendrix sounds out of the BM, both Early Marshall and Early Fender sounds, if you so desire. If you are using a strat you will need a fuzz face or a tube screamer or a boost pedal to get that little bit of extra gain out of it, but overall, the BM has good gain on the OD channel. I have the HRM bypassed on mine, but that was more because i hated the "set and forget" nature of teh post OD tonestack. if the controls were external, i may have left it working, but as it is, i like it bypassed as it has a totally different tone and OD characteristic than it does with the HRM circuit engaged, and i like it.

From this it seems that the  HRM MKII is a more agressive version of the OTS FM? OR was that a typo and it was supposed to be '183' not FM? main reason im asking is because 183 and MKII uses the same tubes and there are no videos of MKII on the web :/

Hi
I have both the FM50 and MKII 50. I would say with the OD trim set the same on both amps the FM50 has more hair than the MKII. As you turn up the OD trim the FM seems to get a little fizzy quicker. I keep my OD trim on the FM at about 11:00 and on the MKII at about 3:00. I am running JJ 6cA7's in the MKII btw IMO they sound better than the EL34's I had in it.
I cant comment on whether that was a typo but in regards to the similarity between amps the MKII uses pretty much the same pre-amp board as the FM, just a totally different power section more like the 183, then add HRM. I have not played a 183

Todd

Sorry I dont understand much of wat has just been said >< Completely new to this and just thinking of getting my first overtone. So comparing the clean and overdrive sections between the HRM MKII and FM models, wats the difference in sound between the two? In laymans terms because I have no idea wat the technical terms mean. Sorry about this ><  THanks for your hlp

The FM's clean channel is a little chimier than the MK
The FM's OD channel has a little more hair than the MK.
Both are great amps! The differences are subtle
If I had to sell one of them I would keep the FM
Hope this helps

Todd

SO, from what I can gather, the HRM MKII has a tighter OD which doesnt break up as quickly and the FM has a more 'fender' clean? I know the FM model is based on robben ford and MKII is supposed to be marshally but can the MKII come close to a robben ford tone? if yes, would it be appropriate to say that the MKII is more versatile than FM? im looking for an amp that can go from blues to rock to jazz and if pushed, metal but still can do RF, dumbly tones :x

Can the MKII get close to RF tones =  IMO Yes
Is the MKII more versatile than the FM = If you consider having the HRM tonestack more versatile yes. Other than that they are not much different animals.
The Marshally description you mention I believe is for the standard HRM not the MKII. I would not consider either the FM or MK even near Marshall territory when compared to my 2550. Could probably get close with pedals though through the clean channels.

Todd

Excuse my ignorance but erm, wat is a HRM tonestack exactly? also have been wondering wat is an OD trim as well. Sorry for asking all these newb questions ><

No prob

The HRM, Bluesmaster and the MKII all have the HRM tonestack which is a separate treb, mid and bass for the overdrive channel. On the original dumbles and in the C-tone versions these potentiometers are located inside the chassis so they are pretty much set it and forget it. The purpose is to be able to EQ your OD separate from your clean. This could be seen as being more versatile than the standard OTS's by some. I prefer simple and have not once thought when playing my FM ( non-HRM ) that it would be better if it had separate TMB for the OD.

The OD trim is another potentiometer that in original Dumbles was mounted internally on the pre-amp board inside the chassis and was originally set by Dumble himself when tuning the amps he built before giving them to the original buyer. Nik at one point moved the potentiometer to the back of the amp for easy access which I think is great. It is just a drive knob really but it can set the OD section anywhere from just clean boost to serious crunchy drive. I set mine somewhere in between.


Hope this helps

Todd

I see, thanks so much for your help! Ur answers helped me alot  ;D Sounds like I would like the HRM MKII more because I like playing arounnd with my settings alot XD
Sounds to me like c-tone amps can sound so different from one another simply from the OD trim that depending on wat u tweak, the FM and MKII can sound either very close to each other or very different?
If only someone can post some cover/demo clips of their MKII :P

Hi Justie and welcome!  I have played through and have had an HRM for a couple years now.  I have run 6l6 types as well as el34 through it.  It is a wonderfully versatile stage partner, am running a c-lator with mine.  I have enjoyed being able to use the HRM trimmers, the PI trimmer, and the bias trim pot all work together to bring that amp to the kinds of tones where folks actually notice that the guitar sounds nice.  Have to say that I have adjusted the HRM trimmers only twice, am very happy now with that ability.  

Owning a D-clone is a different ride than what most folks have had, so don't be in a hurry to pick something out.  Personally, I spent quite a few hours surfing on youtube for clips, to see if I could come up with any pre purchase impressions to go with model types.  The HRM MK II came out after I had mine built, so have no experience there.  The amp taught me how to be a better guitar player, and had major influence on how I set up my other amps to play through after getting it..