What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

Toppscore
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What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« on: January 14, 2013, 11:45:43 AM »

Hi! This is my first post. I own a ton of Tweed Blonde Brownface
Blackface Silverface & Modern Solid State Fender amps.
No more Fender for me, gotta study what I own.

But, I'm extremely interested in owning a "Dumble Amp Head"
either a Ceriatone Kit, a Ceriatone built clone or a boutique clone.

What Ceriatone amp kit or clone is the best?
The Overdrive Undecided

The SSS

Did Howard Dumble make various Dumble models or just one?
Does Ceriatone have a variety of Dumble amp kits besides the Overdrive and/or the SSS?

I study Blues, Rockabilly, Classic Rock, Blues Rock and Folk Rock . . . . .
Electric BDylan, Hendrix, Creedence, Savoy Brown, Ten Years After, Gov't Mule,
Northern Mississippi Allstars, Cliff Gallup, Scotty Moore, Albert King, etc.

If you were to choose one Ceriatone Dumble amp as a keeper for life,
what do many of you suggest?

Thanks for your input(s). Toppscore Cool


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Love Fender Dumble Trainwreck Tones * 1954 Fender 5D6 4x10 Bassman
1960 Fender 6G4 2x10 Super Amp * 1964 Bassman Amp Head
1964 Twin Reverb 2x12 * 1964 Super Reverb 4x10
1983 Concert II * 1983 Twin Reverb II Amp Head
1968 Showman Reverb Head * 1968 Bandmaster Reverb Head
2012 Fender G-DEC-30w

plasticvonaband
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2013, 04:17:01 AM »

HAD based his early amps on Fenders, either modifying or basing the circuits on them. Here is some info on the different models for you from other psots on the forum

Non Hrm classiq EQ is the oldest style of dumble amp. A bit more rooted in the
raw fenderish tone. This is the amp that made his reputation. This
would be like early Lindley, Browne, Lowell George, the first
incarnation of his amps.
It can sustain like a mofo! It is a singing OD for sure.
Not much compression, very touch sensitive and dynamic....

Second the Non-HRM Skyliner EQ low plate is a variation of the above. Dumble modded
several of his older amps with a new tone stack he was developing,
know as the skyline eq because it's output viewed on a scope resembled
a city skyline.
It is a little less Fender but still a somewhat lower gain affair. It
has the same gain as the vintage amp but the new EQ is more "signature dumble" and a little less Fender. Improved cleans from th Vintage model.
It still sustains like a mofo, has a bit better string to string definition and is a little more refined in the tone shaping.

Non-HRM Skyliner EQ high plate is where he went next, same as above but now the
gain staging is not classic fender. It has more headroom, definition, and punch, more lively and responsive cleans, smoother OD, and a small bit of compression, very touch sensitive, lots of sweet singing tones.

HRM Skyliner EQ HRM stands for
"Hot Rubber Monkey". This is a second tone stack just for the OD
channel. It is more or less a Marshall style tone stack this allows tone
shaping of the OD independent of the cleans.
A real Dumble of this ilk would be called a Skyline HRM. Smooth as silk, goes from clean to mean like no ones biz. Transition
between is amazing. You can pick clean, a bit dirty, grinding, soaring, all
with your hand and all smoothly with definition. No rasp or buzz. Very refined. Gorgeous smooth tones. A little more compression that the above amps but not in a bad way. Very natural. The dynamic response is second to none. This amps feels like it breathes with you after awhile.
Smooth singing overdrive, completely dynamic, never any rasp or buzz, no IM distortion or other uglies.

Blues Master. Think raw early Fender/Marshall
tone on steroids. The tone stack is decidedly bassman territory,
however because of Dumbles many other difference it is far better IMO.
The cleans here are the best cleans I think I have ever heard, dumble
or otherwise. The cleans will sing and sustain!!! The OD is much less smooth and much less compressed than the above amps. It has some early Marshall vibe to it. Boosted cleans with this amp are to die for. The OD is a bit more raw and edgy then some of the other offerings but with boosted cleans you get the smooth side of things and with the OD you have a less polite and refined tone.
Somewhat like the first Dumbles, though different. Lots of punch, sustain and singing but not as smooth as some of the other offerings. This one can be thick and dense too. Not dark and crappy, just "meaty"...
Open clean cleans to mean and a little rude.
Big fat sick blues machine. Lots of character or soul. This amp will try and steal you girl.Like a tuxedo on a cowboy?.... It can play nice but it can still stomp in the dirt

last is the same as above with the HRM OD tone stack which gives a little more tone shaping and refining in the OD section.

FWIW Non_Hrm Skyliner EQ High plater is basically the OTS

Overtone Special (2x&L6) Skyliner nonHRM
Overtone Special 100 (4x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
Very smooth and warm sounding OD, lots of OD on tap but not as much as S&M, mid heavy cleans (in a good way). Amp that likes to sustain and compress. Easy amp to play... All knobs at noon and you have a sound to work with.

Overtone S&M Special Skyliner nonHRM
Overall brighter amp compared to standard OTS... clean tone is more or less the same (just a tad brighter), on the other hand OD is brighter, more aggressive sounding. Like OTS this amp likes to sustains. In my experience this amp is not designed to switch from clean to OD on the fly. You have to set the clean and stick with it... than go to OD, set the tone again and play that for a while.

Overtone Skyliner HRM
Overtone Skyliner HRM 100
Clean tone is practically the same as OTS or S&M. With additional tonestack at the OD stage this amp offers more flexibility, along with other switchable options (like deep or pull bright on the OD), this amp offers the most tone selections compared to other amps Ceriatone offers. Overall this amp has less OD on tap compared to nonHRM amps, it will not sustain as much as nonHRM and it somehow makes you work for the tone. That's my feeling about this amp.

Overtone HRM Bluesmaster
Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 100
This amp is completely different. It has different cleans compared to amps above... cleans are more mid scooped, more fendery if you wish but with a lot of low end. This amp possesses a punch like no other amp. Again not as much OD as nonHRM, this amp makes you work for the tone too (very dynamic).

Hope this helps

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

sduck
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2013, 04:19:17 AM »

Ceriatone makes some 17 different varieties of Dumble clones. Kit and assembled versions. All kinds of mods are possible. There's also Fuchs, Twin Rock and a few other well known clone makers.

Howard Dumble made several hundred amps, and may not be done making them. Just about every one is different. He customized them for the buyer.

A bit of google research time will fill you in on a lot more history.

Someone will hopefully fill in more details about the different kinds, but if you could narrow down what kind of sound you're looking for, it would make life easier for all involved.

I have a Bluesmaster 50w head that I built from a kit, and it's an outstanding amp, exactly what I was hoping for.


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Toppscore
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 06:34:41 AM »

Quote from: sduck on January 15, 2013, 04:19:17 AM

Ceriatone makes some 17 different varieties of Dumble clones. Kit and assembled versions. All kinds of mods are possible. There's also Fuchs, Twin Rock and a few other well known clone makers. Howard Dumble made several hundred amps, and may not be done making them. Just about every one is different. He customized them for the buyer. A bit of google research time will fill you in on a lot more history. Someone will hopefully fill in more details about the different kinds, but if you could narrow down what kind of sound you're looking for, it would make life easier for all involved. I have a Bluesmaster 50w head that I built from a kit, and it's an outstanding amp, exactly what I was hoping for.

Wow, SDuck! This forum is awesome. I'm new here ~ never owned a Marshall and have
been a Fender Man with amps and guitars. But, I want to try the Dumble/Trainwreck thing
rather than Marshall.

To your request for music styles = Rockabilly, Blues, Blues Rock, Classic Rock, Folk Rock, Surf Rock.
Kim Simmonds/Savoy Brown, Alvin Lee/Ten Years After, Cliff Gallup, Scotty Moore, Keith Richards,
Link Ray, Early George Harrison, Buddy Holly, Creedence, Dick Dale, James Burton, Some Hendrix.
More of the "Americana" type of tones/sounds rather than British or Glam Rock or Heavy Metal.

So, I do want the clean sounds that can get "crunchy" "fuzzy" and achieve OD when desired.
I love Fender Reverb Tank Units and the Fender tone.

I absolutely want the Dumble feature regarding the fact that SOME Dumbles
can pickup Rockabilly single & duo string "attack picking" sounds
better than other Dumbles and better than most any other amp made.

I desire a Dumble different than a Fender clone (why duplicate) but do enjoy Fender/ish tones
with options on occassion to dial in towards Marshall Stack OD, if desired.

Don't know if ALL Dumbles only have one channel, but if Dumble or any particular Dumble amp models
do or do not have two channels, . . . . then a
beautiful clean channel #1 that "sings" and a channel #2 that slips to OD quickly for Classic Rock tones.

Notice I did not mention The Who, Led Zeppelin, Metallica, . . . . love these groups,
but not for my song list or originals. Awesome = Doors, GunsNRoses, James Brown = Good.

Thanks again. Toppscore


« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 07:42:03 AM by Toppscore »	Logged

plasticvonaband
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 07:32:46 AM »

Sounds like the HRM or the HRM BM would do ya quite nicely. The HRM's and HRM BM's are more of a 2 channel type, in a wayt, but they are still cascading gain type OD.
The Non HRMs do not have two master volumes, but rather one master volume with a Ratio knob to mix the OD into the clean signal when the OD is engaged. The HRM and HRM BM have two master volumes one for OD and one for the Clean side. On Non HRMs and HRM amps the OD is affected by the preamp gain on the clean side.

The BM is known for its "Blackface on Steroids Sound" on the clean side. This is true depending on the speakers you use. To me, with the speakers i use, it's a nice mix of tweed fender and blackface, so a big Brownface sound. The BM's PI is such that it breaks down into OD a lil easier than the rest, and you can therefore get nice, less compressed OD on the clean side, especially if boosted, or if you use a c-lator as a global master volume. THE OD on the BM is more brash and less compressed than the standard HRM. It's Marshally, but more early Marshall, like a JTM 45. you can turn the OD trim up and get more drive, as well, but it isn't its strong suit.

The HRM has a slightly fatter clean side, and the OD is more compressed and modern sounding to my ear.

Like SDuck said, HAD made every amp unique to its owner, and Nik has made a few "custom" mods that stuck, like the S&M.

That being said, what kind of volume range are you looking at? A JTM 45 can be pretty clean and be pushed to crunchiness and fuzziness with the right boost pedal. but can be loud. Also, the Stray Cat 30 can do a pretty fat clean and very nice OD as well.

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 07:33:19 AM »

Quote from: plasticvonaband on January 15, 2013, 04:17:01 AM

HAD based his early amps on Fenders, either modifying or basing the circuits on them. Here is some info on the different models for you from other psots on the forum
Non Hrm classiq EQ
Non-HRM Skyliner EQ low plate
Non-HRM Skyliner EQ high plate
HRM Skyliner EQ HRM stands for "Hot Rubber Monkey". This is a second tone stack just for the OD channel.
It is more or less a Marshall style tone stack this allows tone shaping of the OD independent of the cleans.
Blues Master. Think raw early Fender/Marshall tone on steroids

FWIW Non_Hrm Skyliner EQ High plater is basically the OTS

Overtone Special (2x&L6) Skyliner nonHRM
Overtone Special 100 (4x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
Overtone S&M Special Skyliner nonHRM
Overtone Skyliner HRM
Overtone Skyliner HRM 100
Overtone HRM Bluesmaster
Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 100
Hope this helps * Gregg

Thanks a million, Gregg. Much appreciated.

Seems the following are the Ceriatone available “Dumble” amp kits/clones
within two different groupings. Did I get this right?

1) Non HRM classic EQ
2) Non-HRM Skyliner EQ Low Plate
3) Non-HRM Skyliner EQ High Plate
4) HRM Skyliner EQ
5) Blues Master
================
1a) Overtone Special 50w (2x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
1b) Overtone Special 100w (4x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
2) Overtone S&M Special Skyliner nonHRM
3a) Overtone Skyliner HRM 50w
3b) Overtone Skyliner HRM 100w
4a) Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 50w
4b) Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 100w

Question: What do you mean by “boosted cleans” from the Blues Master amp?
Volume dimed? Added pedals?

Question: Do I have this correct? “ HRM stands for Hot Rubber Monkey which is
the name of a second tone stack that is only dedicated to the OD channel.”

“FWIW, the #3 “Non-HRM Skyliner EQ High Plate” is basically the OTS (Overtone Special)”
Are you indicating that the OverTone Specials are really the same as the HighPlate Skyliner?
How close/similar are you indicating?

So far, via your fantastic descriptions, I’m attracted to in no particular order:
1) Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 50w
because of the more “low-end” as described and I assume it has two channels
Interestingly, I’d love to hear a six-string baritone guitar on this amp.

2) HRM Skyliner EQ
because of the second available channel with a dedicated strong OD tone stack.
The HRM Skyliner EQ seems switchable between Bassman cleans and Marshall distortion.

3) Blues Master 50w
will be wondering about the differences between the Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 50w,
original 1950s Fender 4x10 Bassmans and the JTM 50w Marshall combo amps.

***I am not a BBKing or Clapton tone guitarist, so my choice of amps will be for overall sustain,
tones, low-end with decent high-end and the ability to work with 1960s Fender Reverb Tank Units.
Just my styles.

Again. Thank you Gregg.
Toppscore


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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 07:38:08 AM »

Gregg. We posted at the same time

Will have to review your recommendations
based upon the styles of music I shared with SDuck
and with the three "pre-judged amps" I chose
based upon your page of Dumble amp descriptions.

So far:
* Two channels are important
* Singing first channel
* Crunchy distortion second channel
* Strong LOW_END thump is very good
* Probably 50w is best
* I really enjoy rhythm leads, baritone sounds,
full on Stratocaster & Telecaster guitars and've lately been
getting into stacked pickups and some humbucker pickups as well.

Let's go from here. Cannot wait to see your comments.

Then, I will study Ceriatones list of products and get one.
. . . . . and join the club
Toppscore


« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 07:45:16 AM by Toppscore »	Logged

plasticvonaband
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2013, 07:44:57 AM »

Topp,

Boosted can either be via the onboard PAB (preamp boost) or your favorite boost pedal. Diming it sounds nice too, just loud!

The top 5 on your list are the original Dumble names for his designs, the 7 others are Nik's name for those designs.

The FWIW comment is from the original post, which if i remember correctlty was from Amp garage or TGP, not my comment

The standard OTS is pretty much the High Plate voltage variety of the Dumble ODS, with the Skyliner tonestack.

Yes HRM stands for Hot Rubber Monkey, or Hot Rodded Marshall, depending on who ya talk to.

#'s 1 & 3 on your last list are the same amp, just one with the HAD name, and one with Ceriatone on it.

Hope this helps

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 08:45:13 AM »

1) Non HRM classic EQ
2) Non-HRM Skyliner EQ Low Plate
3) Non-HRM Skyliner EQ High Plate
4) HRM Skyliner EQ
5) Blues Master
================
1a) Overtone Special 50w (2x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
1b) Overtone Special 100w (4x6L6) Skyliner nonHRM
2) Overtone S&M Special Skyliner nonHRM
3a) Overtone Skyliner HRM 50w
3b) Overtone Skyliner HRM 100w
4a) Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 50w
4b) Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 100w
======================

Wow! Decision making is moving fast, thanks for SDuck & Gregg's help.

So the NON-HRM amps are more Fender-like and the Blues Master & Skyliner
have more Marshall characteristics. Right?

Apparently the first five are from Dumble's own inventory of names
and second four are what can be purchased from Ceriatone.

And, according to Gregg, it seems like
3a) Overtone Skyliner HRM 50w
4a) Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 50w
are the ones for me to investigate.

This narrows things down, considerably. Thank you.

Toppscore


« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 08:47:46 AM by Toppscore »	Logged

sduck
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 04:29:25 AM »

I'd go with Gregg's recommendations - he knows a lot more about these than I do!

Based on your musical choices, I'd highly recommend the bluesmaster, either the 50w or the 100w version. My 50w through 2 EV 12in speakers makes a whole lot of sound, but you get more clean headroom with the 100w version. Supposedly. That's what I've heard.

Love the amps in your sig! My personal favorite amp that I'll forever kick myself for selling was a 65 Twin Reverb - what a great amp!


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plasticvonaband
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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 05:05:20 AM »

Quote from: sduck on January 16, 2013, 04:29:25 AM

There are folks on here who know alot more than me, that's for sure

The Bluesmaster does sound like it would get the job done for ya, though. I'm hopin the 212Mavguy will chime in, he has a standard HRM and can give his insight.

Off topic, i had a chance to get a Blackface Twin Reverb when i was in highschool in the mid 90's for practically nothing. No body wanted those old fender tube amps then, it was all rack stuff and mesas. i made the wrong decision...

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 08:45:35 AM »

Quote from: sduck on January 16, 2013, 04:29:25 AM

I'd go with Gregg's recommendations - he knows a lot more about these than I do! Based on your musical choices, I'd highly recommend the bluesmaster, either the 50w or the 100w version. My 50w through 2 EV 12in speakers makes a whole lot of sound, but you get more clean headroom with the 100w version. Supposedly. That's what I've heard. Love the amps in your sig! My personal favorite amp that I'll forever kick myself for selling was a 65 Twin Reverb - what a great amp!

Thanks, SDuck!
What attracted me to the Bluesmaster 50w were the reviews stating this amp offers lots of "LOW-END" for a guitar amp.
I'm still studying. Because, if I get the Bluesmaster 50w, then I'll want one of the three Trainwrecks that will be
completely different from my below Fender amp line-up, and different than the Bluesmaster 50w Dumble clone.

So, for now, the "Dumble" Bluesmaster 50w needs to get played and/or samples listened to before purchasing.

Toppscore Cool


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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2013, 09:03:26 AM »

Quote from: plasticvonaband on January 16, 2013, 05:05:20 AM

Quote from: sduck on January 16, 2013, 04:29:25 AM

I'd go with Gregg's recommendations - he knows a lot more about these than I do! Based on your musical choices, I'd highly recommend the bluesmaster, either the 50w or the 100w version. My 50w through 2 EV 12in speakers makes a whole lot of sound, but you get more clean headroom with the 100w version. Supposedly. That's what I've heard. Love the amps in your sig! My personal favorite amp that I'll forever kick myself for selling was a 65 Twin Reverb - what a great amp!

There are folks on here who know alot more than me, that's for sure

The Bluesmaster does sound like it would get the job done for ya, though. I'm hopin the 212Mavguy will chime in, he has a standard HRM and can give his insight.
Off topic, i had a chance to get a Blackface Twin Reverb when i was in highschool in the mid 90's for practically nothing. No body wanted those old fender tube amps then, it was all rack stuff and mesas. i made the wrong decision... Gregg

Gregg. As you can see from my below list of amps, I have a few from each Fender era.
The 1954 5D6 4x10 Tweed Bassman is killer, and simple. Has tone all it's own.
I had it "A-B"d with a 1959 5F6A recently. Both amps sound good/great, but different.
Most have never heard of the term "Fender 1954 5D6 4x10 Bassman", much less heard the tones.

My 1960 Fender 6G4 Transitional Super Amp has six pre-amp tubes for a 6G4A tremolo circuit,
a 6G8 Twin tone circuit and all wrapped into the 1960 JI September Super Amp circuitry
during Leo Fender's glorious experimental year of 1960.

The Super Amp arrived damaged. Seller paid for bad UPS shipping and his extremely poor packaging.
I had Skip Simmons straighten things out and modifiy absolutely NOTHING to bring this original
Super Amp back to life. I had never heard it play until it arrived back two months ago.
Now, it is my best tone/sounding amp of all my amps. Not really a crunchy distortion type amp,
but just the sweetest Rock sounds/tones I have ever heard. Incredible.
These 40w Super Amp Beasts are hard on the 1959 Jensen P10R speakers, but Skip Simmons says
he knows a reconner that has "tougher/stronger" P10R recones that will handle the Super Amp 40w output.

This leaves me with my three 1964 Blackface amps that are generally my favorite amps.
The sounds and tones are Classic Rock, Blues and Rockabilly KILLER. All are 1964s and
all original and all in Near Mint condition.

So, those are my five "solid sender" keepers. Need to decide what to do with the remaining.

Now, to get away from Fender and I do not like Marshall, I will be getting . . . . at this point,
the Overtone HRM Bluesmaster 50w "Dumble clone" (still need more review) and then I will
seek a Ceriatone Trainwreck that will fit in and not duplicate the Bluesmaster or Fenders.

Bottom line, is that you missed out on the Blackface for the for the 1990s Glam Rock Explosion - haha Cry

Hey, they are out there. What do you use nowadays?

Toppscore Cool


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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2013, 10:07:22 AM »

I missed out on it because i didn't have the funds at the time

i never did the whole glam rock rack unit thing. I had one solid state amp, a Yorkville Stage 150GH, kinda wish i still had it. i also had an old blackface princeton reverb, my Sovtek Mig 50 with a custom 4x12, and an Ampeg J12R that i used.

i hardly ever play out anymore. i use my Modded Ceriatone Bluesmaster 50 watter 2x12 combo with a Weber Alnico 1265 and a Weber Neo 12, my Roland JC90, and my trusty Ampeg J12R.

Wasn't the 5D6 one of Fender's first Fixed Bias amps? They are very rare, like hen's teeth if i recall. very nice!

Gregg


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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.

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Re: What is the BEST Dumble KIT/CLONE, if you can only ONE???

« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2013, 01:21:27 PM »

Quote from: plasticvonaband on January 16, 2013, 10:07:22 AM

I missed out on it because i didn't have the funds at the time

Rarest of the rare. Only eleven remain of the 182 built in 1954.
Of the eleven remaining, only three are with original tweed and cabinet.
Mine has 2 or 3 of the original trannys and three of the original speaker frames.
Good stuff. Good knowledge on your part.


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