Ceriatone Forum

Heading in a different direction to most of you pickers on this forum - Country, as in Brad Paisley style/sound. I have a stock OTS 50w about 2yrs old, currently using a Celestion G12T-100 which sounds ok, much better than the Tonkerlight I have been using in a Pro Reverb, which has packed a sad  on me and is off to the 'amp doc'. I have been using the  Ceriatone on and off over the 2 yrs but could not get what I wanted from it. With the Pro out of action I have found some sounds I quite like in the C and will keep on using it. Brads 'Mud on the Tyres' solo at the end is where I would like to be. Not ready to buy a Dr Z yet as I think the Big C could get up close and growly. Im thinking that the Weber blue or Celestion Gold could get me closer. Any thoughts etc would be appreciated. Also amp mods that could help.
Link to MotT   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_eyvTPgnM4

The Youtube Brad P clip sounds, are supernice. However, I doubt it that you can get those right out of the can. What you're hearing on that track is not just an amp with a sm57 in front of it, but

1) the result of great playing,
2) good recording technique (with perhaps a royer ribbon close and a room mic a couple of feet away).
3) Great mixing skills, carefully compressing and eq'ing instruments to gel in with each other
4) best in class mastering technique

After writing the above, I did a simple google search (!) and found this link: http://www.musicradar.com/guitarist/brad-paisleys-gear-267937

Effects: Compressor + Tubescreamer + slap delays

Speakers:
These are 2 x 12 cabinets, with one [Celestion] Blue and one Gold. Two Blues can give you a little bit much in the low end when they break up, so one Blue and one Gold solves that."


Mic: Royer

Thanks for the comments Fenderman, I had seen that article and had also read of Brads stated preference for the Celestion Blue. I probably should have asked which speaker, the Blue Dog or Celestion Gold would have been closest to the Celestion Blue. I am not keen to put a 15w speaker into a 50w amp, too much chance of letting the magic smoke out.   A lot of country pickers have gone away from the Twin/6L6s and have gone towards the el84s powered amps and that the speaker is only part of the equation, but I also know that all the parts add up for an end result. I also know I will never sound and pay like BP but I am interested in developing my own sound and will do a little experimenting with components as time goes by. Do you still think it is worth changing the snubbers as I see you have removed that reference and also the reference to Twin Reverbs. I will probably go for the Gold. Some more pickin for your amusement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6BJ2E8eKww

Hi
Definitely Celestion Gold! Sounds awesome and records great as well.
Also one easy mod which would have tremendous effect on the tone you need –
Get three way mini toggle switch, solder 47pf cap on one filament and 100pf on another.
Solder together their outer contacts and connect it to MASTER volume’s right filament.
From the toggle switch central contact connect wire to master’s central filament.
In the middle position your amp’s tone would be intact and up or down positions would give you desired top end.
This is not a country picking but tone is similar with strat bridge pickup and Celestion gold speaker miced slightly off axis.
http://www.guitarampcab.com/bbfnk.mp3
Cheers

Thanks Pickmaster, before I pull the trigger on a 12'' Gold, any thoughts about using a 30w 10'' Weber Alnico Blue and a 40w 10 ''Ceriatone Gold in the same cabinet, series or parallel, Do you think they would handle the power. Not sure if you have heard either speaker and what they would bring to the mix, but it could be an interesting combination

Power wise they will be fine in parallel or series.
I always prefer tone when I use speakers in parallel, always more open and punchy.
Weber and Celeston alnico 10’’s  would sound great I think.
16 ohm and 15 ohm in paralel = 7,5 ohm

the Weber blue pup 30W is a great speaker and projects really well and gets better sounding the more you turn it up.
however the bass in the 10 is quite weak in comparisin to the 12' version. i have had one for about 4 years now and it sounds great after broken in.

given the OTS has a huge bottom end... i would recommend getting a high dope on the Webers to allow for later breakup (ie tolerance to stronger signals without distorting)...

i think a combination of a 10 inch and a 12 would be great, and like pickmaster prefer speakers in parallel instead of series... probably because the inductance load of the two speakers is halved as opposed to being doubled when in series.

one thing i have noticed with alnico blues.... they sound terrible in a muddly way when loaded in closed back cabs (ie orange/marshall). open cabs or combos are the way to go.

hope this helps

also be aware that diff brands of speakers don't have identical impedance at all frequencies

I tried a Celestion Gold in parallel with a Fane AXA12 that was 1dB more sensitive, and the Gold was twice as loud - hence it must have been drawing much more from the amp.
If you have a 50w amp and a 30w and a 50w driver in parallel, check which runs the loudest (& take into account the sensitivities), you may put 40w into one driver without realising

Thats simply not true.

If you connect two 8 ohm speakers in parallel Or in Series, they get The same amount of AMP power. Period.

You must have connected speakers with different impedances.

You're a little confrontational sounding really. Please try to be a bit less blunt.

I have a Celestion Gold 8 ohm
and a
Fane AXA12 8 ohm

I ordered them specifically, and bought them new, and that's what is says on them.

Do you believe that all voice coils in all speakers of the same nominal impedance have the same characteristics?
The impedance is not even consistent across the frequency range in a single driver.

see http://www.installer.com/tech/sit.html (http://www.installer.com/tech/sit.html)

cheers
Tone

Sorry about that, no pun intended.


You're right about different impedance curves for different speakers, but I don't think that is the explanation for differences in sound.

Were the speakers played in for at least 100 hours, when you made the test.
New speakers are a little stiff and will sound hard - especially an alnico like the Cel Gold.

I bought a Tone Tubby a year ago and it was a big dissapointment, spikey and ear pearsing sounds all around until it was broken in. Now its much softer and too far away from my old Cel greenbacks.

I would agree that speakers would usually change with use. I assume it's mostly the cone rather than the voice coil and magnetic characteristics

These were both new, it was the volume difference that startled me, since the Fane should be 1-2dB louder.
I got the Gold direct from Celestion, to replace a new one with nasty rasping on 2 notes, this replacement has quieter nasty rasping on one note, I am still not sure whether they all have these faults. But it sounds so good with my BM50. Any advice anyone?

So my point is that with 2 parallel different speakers - the interaction is way more complicated than it first appears, they can each steal power at different frequencies, as if they had some king of weird crossover filters, presumably hence Matchless cabs deploying a tested successful mismatch. But as well as that, you may drive one voice coil more than the other at some frequency, and if you are expecting an even split of power into max rating, you could be overloading one.

Cheers
Tone

You could take inspiration from the Dr.Z ZWreck 2x12 cabinet, where a Celestion Gold is parred with a Celtion Blue:


Which is the amp that was referred to in the beginnin gof this post.
http://www.drzamps.com/amp/z_wreck/

hi guys

there are couple of points here

1. higher sensitivity means you get more dB per watt of power, so the AXA should be louder (case in point i use a g12-65 and EVM12 and the EV is definitely louder)
2. yes the speakers have dfferent characteristics...which in a dymanic sense (ie AC)means Inductance and Resistance and capacitance. every speaker has its own values and hence responds diffrently at any given power and frequency
3. mechanics: cones are made from different materials and and age differently and also interact with signals frequescy and power in different ways. hence the perceived difference in tone.
4. the physical design and shape of the cone and voice coil, and the gap between voice coil and magnet....
5. ageing: magnets do not age, however speaker cones will both with use and also good ole mother nature... and that also includes the breakin time for them....
6: and lastly dont forget the amp that drives it... the output trannie has its own set of characteristics and wll react differently to different complex inductive loads.

a speaker is a very simple electric motor in some ways ... if you think of it that way rather than just an inductor. they were never designed to be equal and thank god for that, imagine a world where all speakers were the same.... HOW BORING!!

mixing speakers is great fun... however its also a hit and miss affair....and also depends on your own personal tates.

btw: my weber had a rattle at one note when new and it settles after a week or two of hard playing.

lastly
i have a friend who has a Badcat HOTCAT30. i alsways hated that amp as it always sounded too bright and one dimensional. he was also looking to boaden the sound.

so we got an open 212 cab. and loaded it with one Vintage 30, and a celestion ELITE80 (this was out of an egnator)
the elite 80 was a dark speaker on its own.

when i head the amp now with the original Badcat/celestion in the combo, and cab with 2 mixed speakers.... its fatastic!!
the original badcat speaker dominates... however without the other two...that amp sounds sterile to my ears

Thanks to all the comments guys, I chickened out on the 2 x 10''s and have a 12'' Cel Gold on the way. Some interesting thoughts and experiences with mixing speakers/brands etc. The idea of having two different speakers that could be switched between or used together appealed, maybe using a 3 way Tele switch? Could work I guess.  Maybe next time AJ

I thought of getting a 4x12 cab, or making a 3x12 cab, and fitting a switch to configure a few combinations. Probably less trouble to just wire up separate cabs

@Pickmaster: ref the idea of adding a couple of caps on the master vol via a toggle switch to change the top end, i am interested in doing this on my HRM BM. Of course, my amp technically has two master volumes instead of a blend like the standard OTS, so what i want to know is if i should or if i can put a toggle on both master volumes and if it would make much difference on the OD channel?

Hi plasticvonaband,

Good thinking!!!
If  a “master” works only for clean and a “volume” on OD works independently from main “master” then you will have additional  tone shaping options which is great.
Just chose a capacitor values for your taste on a gig volume.
Good luck my man.