Ceriatone Forum

Like the subject says: how close can I get with the OTS? Suggested settings? Is the C-Lator a important ingredient of the sound?
Thanks!

The simple answer is yes. Settings? to taste but I just set everything vertically up and tweek from there. (Overdrive trim 9-11 oclock) (C-lator input 12-2, drive 12(vertically up) output = master volume)

but....... (there is always one of those)

For me (so this is just my opinion) I was looking for an easy (non-evasive) way to balance the volume between the overdrive and the clean channels and I have found that putting a 5751 in V2 does this and, by accident, also gets the overdrive channel close to RF dirty rhythm sound. This sounds good with single coil pup's however you do lose some gainy sustain from the 12AX7 to the 5751 change.

You need a c-lator.

You also have to mod your amp.

Dropping string of the power supply:
1st resistor: 2k7

Resistor after v2b coupling cap: 150k
Snubbers: both 250pF(although 270pF will also be fine)
The cap that's on the mid switch: 390pF (silver mica)
Bright cap on the master is 68pF(silver mica)
Presence cap is 2,2uF

Mind this: This configuration is unusable without a c-lator/dumblelator.

Personally I also find it useful to make the NFB resistor 10K instead of 4,7k. This way I don't have to crank the presence control. My amp responds better to it.

Really, really interesting! I'm also thinking of getting my OTS modded more to these specs but I don't have the skills/tools to do it!

p.s. Erwin, we should get together once more to compare our OTS amps..!

Thanks for your suggestions! These mods, mentioned: what will they do with the sound? How will my amp be different? Why are they no good without a dumbleator?

Do you prefer Kleinulator or C-laotor, or is either ok?


PS. I have a 2x12 cab with Vintage Celestions for my OTS.
Thanks.

@Emiel: Off course, comparing would be nice. Meeting in November?

@Claws: I can describe what each component does, but that's probably not your question?
The overall sound is brighter and has a more focused upper midrange.

The amp does sound too bright when there is no c-lator, believe me it is a real nightmare. Like a boss Metal charger in its worst setting ;D
Together with the C-lator it's magic.

I prefer a C-lator; it has a much better feel. If you have Celestion vintage 30 I doubt this mod will work. (too bright; I recently did this mod by someone's OTS with v30)

C- Lator is better as it is valve (tube) based and will add a bit of compression / harmonic interest when driven.


In my view you need to have the G12-65H for 'the' Robben sound...there again which Robben sound are you looking for?

My OTS is pretty much standard spec, I use a Fuchs Verbrator in the loop, drive a 1 x G12 - 65 cab and set the knobs as:

Gain = 5
Treble = 3.5
Mid = 4
Bass = 3.5
Level = 4
Ratio = 6
Master = whatever I can get away with.....4 sounds really good
Presence = 3 (I prefer this to be low for OD sounds although I admit that clean sounds better when set at 7 / 8
Internal gain trim set at around 10 O'Clock (measures 27 K Ohm on a DMM in circuit)

I use a Richie Kotzen Telecaster that has a Single Coil sized Humbucker in the Bridge (Di Marzio Chopper T). I like to back the guitar volume off a bit.

I'm not particularly going for the Robben Ford sound but it's pretty damn close to my ears, there again the RF sound that I like is the more recent "Truth" era rather than the heavier tones e.g. Blue Line.

It's been said here before that the Robben Sound is as much to do with 'touch' rather than amp settings - vary your picking attack from very light to heavy so that you control the OD level in this way. It works for me - I find that I don't like too much OD on this amp - it just doesn't work, the sound goes too mushy and I attribute that to the Skyliner tonestack. When I do want a more 'Marshall OD Tone" I kick in the PAB & Mid Boost and then back the gain off on my guitar by 75%.

Hi!

[/quote]
I really like all of his sounds, but my "first-Robben" was "Handful of Blues". But the sound in my mind with the OTS are especially the "New Morning" live stuff. Seems a lot brighter than earlier sounds of him.

Here´s a example of how my rig sounds with the Vintage30´s right now, without C-lator. Only pedals are Hermida Reverb and Wapler echo. MIND this is recorded in a small concerthall, not so good for drums etc as you know!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18G0KATvcfE

That's a nice sound. If you're happy with it, you probably don't want to change a thing.
If you want exactly the same circuit as RF used the last 2 cd's, follow the mods I wrote a few posts earlier, use a dumblelator/clator and g12-65 speakers.

Thanks! You mentioned that the mods will not do with the V30´s? I am SO disappointed with the G12-65 that I got for my Framus 1x12 cab. I have a G12-100 (1980´s) waiting for my Two Rock design cab, according to Celestion that should be in between the V30 and 65, but for me the 65 didn´t work at all. I had, and gigged it, for about 15 hours, but it always felt like it was so much "in the box", the v30´s feels much more punchy and in-your-face (like the Vibro king, that´s been my main amp for the last 10 years.)

BUT I AM really pleased with the OTS. Last gig was great, and I would like to share a another clip that shows great cleans; and a lot of dynamics during the song. A great amp, really.....  No stompboxes here btw.

Greetings from Sweden!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IhYfEdRbp8

jätta bra!!!  ;D

Very nice clean and OD sounds. Is that a 50w or 100w amp?

Sounds great.

Tack! It´s a 50 W, standard OTS through a 2x12 Fendercab with Vintage 30´s (X-tra cab for the VK). Here's another clean/dirty clip....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aheyL0C7yAU

Miket bra min ven! himelska tone!
Nice band.

Nothing wrong with that sound, both cleans and OD are fantastic.

You know, I think that we all get a bit too critical when it comes to judging the sound of our amps - the OTS is a wonderful amp for many different music genres, granted it takes a little bit of getting used to and you have to find the 'sweet spots' but once you do, it's a real head turning sound especially when played at gig volumes.

My view now is that I'm better off spending more time on my playing (which is full of 'issues') and less time spent worrying about whether changing the bypass capacitor on V2b to 2.2uF is going to make things any better. :)

my thoughts......regardless of the mods i have found that the pickups in your guitar will influence the amp the most.....especially humbuckers.....i have found that PAF like humbuckers are the best to achieve the robben tone....although my yamaha SG also gets close too. ... albeit the yamaha pups have quite high output.

i would suggest using some nice alnico pickups in your guitar and the rest is up to you and your hands.  PAF's are great for this amp as they have clarity and match the amp well when it comes to the touch sensitivity from clean to dirty just by changing your touch and picking.

RF has many great tones on his albums and i guess like all of us... he changes his settings for each song and type of guitar depending on what is required.

I agree 100% with you on PAF-type pickups, being important for RF sounds.

Having read about RF using a Seymour Duncan combo of 59 in neck and a JB in bridge, I bout a set for my Les Paul...boy was I dissapointed with that bridge humbucker. Its all mid - no top, no bottom.

After this experience, I fitted the pickups to a strat, only to get same result.

I cannot believe that RF should have used a Seuymour D JO in his bridge pos. on ANY of his recordings. It's simply not his sound.

I have just swopped the JB for at Seth Lover, which I'm sure will deliver the goods.

Bluesfendermanblues, have you tried the JB with a 250k ohm volumepot? It's specially designed around that value, if you use it with a 500k ohm pot you'll end up with a thin harsh sound. I once had a JB in a Les Paul copy, great thick rock sounds. Then I put some 500k pots in and the result was horrible!

Then something else. If I listen to recent Ford's sounds, say from 2008 to now on, I notice the bottom end is something I haven't heard in any Ceriatone OTS clip so far. It is very aggressive, tight and singing.  Are you guys getting close to this? To me a lot of the 6L6 OTS' low-end can sound somewhat flabby/overly bassy. But I once read in a recent interview that Ford is using Sovtek 5881's just as Carlton is? I'd be pleased to hear if I'm wrong or not. Have a listen to the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7OINxfKZW0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7OINxfKZW0)

This is properly my favourite guitar sound ever, would love to recreate this.

i have an LP with a SH1n in the neck and SH4 in the bridge (nickel covers which help to make thm brighter)...... and i agree the sh4 can sound a tad thick and dark in the guitar, but i love the tone i get with both pickups on together. all pots are 500k but the dark mahogany tone complements the pups well.

i recall RF removed all the pots out of his axe and only used a volume pedal to control his volume......maybe this is how he gets some clarity out of the SH4....? (this was when he was still using the fender signature model)

maybe a 1Mohm pot will clear it up some.......any thoughts?...

Told you through YouTube, I love the tones you have on the recent clips.
Don't mess with your amp.

BTW. I prefer the 65 speaker in a 212 format, not 112. + You need quite a lot of treble to make it sing.

Humbuckers, JB and 59, that was a long time ago. Robben has used Sakashta/Rolphs or vintage PAFs recently.

Cheers

I copyied the layout of the fender Robben Ford signature model which use 1 meg pots all around. This could off course have some sort of impact , but I doubt that the difference between 250k vs 500k vs 1meg would be night and day.

Regarding output tubes, all I can say is I've tried a lot of different OT tubes in my D amps and IMO the best is the Winged C svetlana 6L6. I've got NOS GE's, 5881 etc. but the winged C's are the beef.

The bypassed pots makes sence, I guess, but still the JB is noe muddy HB, that I don't associate with Robben's sounds at all.

Yeah, vintage PAF style PU's are the way to go.

i build and sell guitars for a living.... and finding the right pickup for a particular guitar can drive me crazy.....however its not just the pup.....its also the tone pot.....i generally will swap in the pup i think would be good..... then i will cange the pots to get a sweet tone....not to trebly and not too dark. strating with the volume pot and keeping the tone pot at 500k. the 500k tone pot has less influence in tone and then i can change to 250k  and play with tone cap if i need to reduce brightness more.

the g12-65's are a great speaker, but i found it useless in the combo in its own....it changes its tone at higher volumes.....at bedroom levels its great. so i put the EV12L in the combo and use the g1265 in an extension 112 cab.....they sound excellent together becauae the EV provides the clarity and solig low end... and the g1265 does its thing in support of the EV.

if i was to use two g12-65 then it would probably not be such a problem as the speakers would be sharing the load and not driven to the point where a single would be.

how about the new Ford Mustang?

http://www.ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/OvertoneLayout/OTSFM100W.jpg (http://www.ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/OvertoneLayout/OTSFM100W.jpg)

I assume the name is not accidental

Thanks for this. Could someone verify whether these specs are true to the current specs of Robben's Dumble?

The Mustang is a clone of a clone. I believe that the source was a Bludodrive Ojai and it's 'secrets' were not revealed by the proprietor of Bludo rather another US amp builder who came across it. I don't know if Nik has followed the information 100% - the Ojai circuit is quite specific about the use of components / tolerance especially the Pots for Input gain and Midrange. These are Audio taper pots but the taper response is 30% on Robben / Ojai amps rather than the more common 15% on standard tape pots. In practice this means that for any given setting (say Noon), the 30% taper pot is electrically further along it's travel. In simple terms, Noon on a 30% taper pot gives more midrange than a 15% pot set at Noon (similar impact for gain on the input gain control). There is no more gain / midrange available overall, it only impacts on where you end up setting the pot to achieve the sound that you desire.

They are spot on. The specs are made public at ampgarage by the maker of Bludotone and 2 other members.
Emiel , you played my amp, these are the specs I had in my amp.

The Ojai was made public by someone else, the maker of Bludotone jumped in the discussion and altered some specs regarding the amp of RF.

Thanks Erwin!  I'll just have to find for someone who can mod my OTS to the RF specs!

Though the new 'OTS 183' looks promising as well! The clips I've heard so far do sound great too...

I changed the OD pots to linear.

Most of the changes needed to go from regular OTS (or S&M) to the FM have been marked (shaded colors).

Not that hard to do if you want to do it, ie mod.

How does it sound? I highly recommend it, really. The OD is real creamy...

Thanks!

Nik

What about the cleans?
Obviously a good OD tone is inmportant but so are the cleans. Does this setup work well with a C'lator?

Hi Steven

Cleans aint that bad as well. Good harmonics in the cleans of this one.

I am quite surprised abt comments on how it's supposed to be quite bright without the clator.

I dont find it is. The S&M would be brighter, for example.

The Clator would be good, we even make custom head cabs now so that the Clator fits in right inside. No more complaints abt hard to carry the clator around? :)

Thanks!

Nik

Nik, The 68pF on the master is passing through lots of highs. That's making the amp very bright. If the master cap is omitted, the amp is less bright. Using a Clator rolls off the highs off the bright cap.
I have my amp with these specs for more than a year now and without a dumblelator/clator the od sound is unuseable

Guys you're making me want to mod my OTS...
 >:(


 ;)

You're making me want to ask Erwin to mod my amps LOL ;D

I dunno.

I'd like to get an amp with the OTS OD, but with less "in your face" cleans, without sacrifising brightness/sparkle (using a C'lator).
Not so much the direct cleans of a Twin (bit harsh), but a bit mellower/milder in the attack of the string. Hard to discribe; a bit of natural compression maybe?

The OTS is so direct is very unforgiving in a sense.

Would that be a Bluesmaster?

Interesting how different we are... the perfect amp for me would be OTS clean and bluesmaser OD.  ;)

I like the mids in OTS clean... it makes a SC guitar sound bigger but it gets to muddy in OD... that's why I prefer bluesmaster OD. Much more clearer and string definition.

...I can't say if bluesmaster is what you seek... you need to try one out.

have you tried the Gil Ayan mod on the OD channel, which will filter out the lowest frequencies and make the OD cleaner.
Its simply a 4,7n-47n capacitor with a 10m resistor at the input of the OD.

Hi Steven,

Maybe the #183 would be something for you. To me it sounds more compressed and mellower. You don't need a C-lator though you have to mod your OTS heavily. You could try to change output tubes to EL34 or you could go back to the Sovtek 5881's. I personally really like the OTS in a band context, that 'directness' helps you to cut through. The EL34's make the OTS sound brighter and I think less direct. I wouldn't say my OTS with EL34's is so 'in your face'. It still has that creamy OTS od sound but I'm going to change to 6L6's soon... (also to hear the difference).

No I have not tried this one yet... perhaps I should.
 ;)

@Emiel could I just stick those EL-34's in? that would be simple to try. (re-biassing wouldn't be a problem
@Mcinku Yeah I would love to try a BM. I have tried a regular HRM but didn't like it much.

Did you tweak the trimmers ? IMO you can get a regular HRM to sound like a NON-HRM, easily

Not my amp (Erwins). It's maybe a matter of taste. I felt it sounded a bit more agressive. On the other hand. there are so many things that have an impact. If you stick different tubes in, the amp will sound different.

Steven, Reading your wishes, sounds like you want more compression and a brighter clean channel.
Maybe a resistor instead of a choke(more compression, I dislike it, but maybe you like it) will do the trick together with a EVM12L speaker.

Hi Mate!

There are so many options. :-)
I'm not sure I like the EVM very much. A friend of mine has an OTS with a EVM but it was a bit sterile sounding for my taste.

this is a clean sound I realy love. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jKyHUUNOvw

A Bludo Bluesmaster I think. Plus hands plus hands (and axe) did I mention hands?

Hi,

As for the FM50 brightness, it's more preamp zing than brightness I think.

I do have 68pf across the MV.

However, birds sang to me saying the bright cap on the vol pot should be higher, instead of 120pf.

If so, it'd make for brighter amp for sure, if the bright switch is used.

Maybe I should tweak to have both 120pf and 180pf bright caps (3 way switch) on the Vol pot.

On the matter of #183, I do like it a lot, actually. You might want to try different settings on the OD controls, instead of the soft V positions like usual.  Turn in up a bit more.

It's quite smooth, with a lot of body.

As for tweaks, I guess it's not a matter of just changing tubes. You need to also tweak other places.

Of importance, I have found lately, is the wall supply.

If you ever thought that the amp sounds so different day to day, check your wall.

These days, with more and more ppl in my area, at times my V1 plates drop to abt 180V, and that does spoil things.

I have ordered a regulator from my tranny winder. It allows for adjustments to the wall voltage into the amp so that I can set correct voltage, each time.


Thanks!

Nik

I have a regular OTS and a D'lator (made by Erwin). G12-65 speakers
We experimented with the MV cap. In my setup a 47pf cap on the MV (I use a push pull) didn't make any difference. I have a 68pf now, but it's just to much I think. It does add a nice sparkle in the clean sound, But the OD is not so nice. For me the best way to compensate for the D'lator is to turn up the Presence quite a bit (8).

I wonder if my line of thought is correct
When bypassing the tonestack (PAB switch) one should get a good clean sound. Possibly you need to use the correct bright cap and presence setting to get it.
In my case usimg the PAB switch doesn't give a good sound. It's boxy and nasal.
Getting a good sound without the tone stack should nb  a starting pojnt


Interesting comment on the voltage. I feel my amp sounds different from day to day and I sometimes have the feeling it has something to do with power coming out of the wall. The voltage in Holland (220) is fairly stable I would expect (new house) but still I have doubts.

What would be a simple (cheap LOL) solution to be sure? could I check the stability?





 

Steven, in Denmark we have nominal 230VAC from the wall sockets, but in reality its typically in the range 222-226 VAC.

I guess the only way we can get a stable wall supply is bying one of the more expensive Furman Power Conditioners.