Ceriatone Forum

I thought this would be useful for all of you guys who don't know where to start when you receive your kit... so I'll post my build progress here and show all my mistakes for you to learn from. :D
Let me just say... this is my first D style amp build and let me say something... this is not easy. Hats down to all of you guys who already did this... not to mention Nik and his guys which are doing it all the time.  :)


First... mount HW and do the heaters (if you are doing it Marshall style), tough job wiring heaters, it helps to do this outside the chassis  first and then move in... I did it the hard way of course  :(


EDIT: Some of you were asking where those heater wire go... I attached another photo, this one shows all the pins... ;)

2.) Tone stack pots, switches and input jacks... this was very slow process but it was fun (at least for me)

3.) Relay PS board and the voltage regulator...

4. Working on the V1, V2 sockets, man I don't know how can Nik and the guys wire that foot switch connector and that switches so nicely (I guess my fingers are to big :) )

5. Relay boards in and wire those up...

6. I installed rectifier board and wired those power tube sockets. As you can see OT is mounted as well... I still need to wire impedance selector and install the choke...after that main boards are coming in  ;)

7. Impedance selector and output jacks...

8. One last overall photo before the main board installation...  ;)

9. Installed the boards... warning !!! , do the main board first and then power board... I installed the power board first and man was I angry when I had to run those wires to presence pot or to power tubes  >:(
...anyway as you can see I still need to wire V1,V2,V3 sockets
 ;)

10. V1, V2 and V3 done

11. ...and finally my PT job   :chairdance:

12. ...and a few more for the road  ;D

Not bad for my third amp build ever, isn't it...and not to mention my first D style, so I'm quite pleased with the outcome.
I'm taking her to my amp tech tomorrow...we'll power that scope and sine generator and see what this baby can do.

All good things must end at one point.
 :P


 ;D


 8)

This thread has been a GREAT help.  I am getting nearer to completing my HRM 100 (my first ever build) and will post pix when done.

Thanks again!

Roger

Glad to know that documenting this was worth while...

 :)

Hi Mcinku, You did that fairly quick! Looks very nice. Hope to hear some sounds of your new puppy!

It took me a little over a week... I usually started to work in the evenings, after kids went to bed...around 3h per day... under 30 hours I would say.

I'll ask my tech if I can borrow his HRM (I hope he still has it)... so I can compare OTS, HRM and BM HRM... all 2x6L6 versions.
I'll try to set up my recording gear and try to capture that... should be very interesting... and useful for everybody considering one of this amps.


 ;)

This has been helpful - thank you. I'm still uncertain about those heater wires, but that's just me. I know it's only 6.3v.

It's alive.    :chairdance:


I took the amp to my amp tech for initial power up...
Here's me setting bias at around 33mV

We measured around 40W of clean power...

These are my plate voltages...

V1a   196V
V1b   198V
V2a   193V
V2b   193V
PIa   255V
PIb   247V
6L6   471V

...and finally one happy picture for the end  ;D

Great, well done. Now don't forget to burn it in well.

Sure thing
 ;)

Mcinku, that was a great contribution to this forum and you have all of our thanks, the plate voltages look great, I can't wait to hear it. beautiful job!

You're welcome... I enjoyed this very much... I'm almost sorry it ended, not that I mind having a new amp  ;D
I played it yesterday... just a few minutes (didn't have time for anything more) but I can already say this amp is very much different from my Overtone... and I couldn't stop smiling while I was playing.
Can't say much more at this point.

 ;)

Different how? C'mon don't keep us in suspense!

Ok I'll say a few things but my opinion might change after I learn more about this amp.

This amp has a lot more bass and it's less middly ... FAT as HELL.
Has less overdrive compared to OTS and the character of it is very different. It sounds like a trumpet with a spongy feel to it.   ???  Sorry can't do better than that.  ;D
It sounds bigger, that's a fact...
That's all for now.

I didn't even play with the HRM yet... I just set everything to 12:00 and played

Thanks for these posts.  I am sure the photos will help me as I progress through my build (at about 1/10th your speed!)

Congratulations mcinku !
Nice build and photos. This is very helpful for new builders.

I think that the last photo is the best ! :)

Yesterday I was playing my new amp for a few hours together with OTS with G12-65... at band volumes

...we all know OTS is one hell of an amp but man, this BM is something else.
Compared to OTS it has less mids... more or different kind of bass... the notes just pop out on BM... sound more clear with better string definition. OTS sounds almost congested in the mids somehow. I know OTS sits well in a band mix, still have to try the BM but I think it will do just fine.
BM HRM is an awesome amp and I think it's going to take away no1 spot from the OTS.   :-X

I was sure I would never find even better amp than OTS... damn.

what else is out there... :(

 8)

Hey mcinku,

Congrats my friend, one hell of an amp, I'm sure, especially with tose nice transformers on the pick.
I can't wait to hear sound samples.
Please!!!!!!!

Best wishes

Thanks man,
I'm waiting for my tech to build an HRM (hopefully this weekend), he sold the one he had .
So be patient clips are coming.

 ;)

Would you say the Bluesmaster gets you closer to a blackface tone than the OTS?

I won't say anything until I try this amp along with my friends Twin and OTS.
 ;)

 AS SOON AS MY HRM COMES IN I WILL USE THIS THREAD
AS MY GUIDE, THANKS FOR THE DETAILS  OH AND SOME
CLIPS OF THE FINISHED ARTICLE SOUNDWISE WOULD BE NICE

DEREK

Sure thing...

...glad to know all this is helping someone. Take it slow and enjoy it as much as I did.
 8)

Rest assured it is helping. I just started an OTS build when you began posting. I've wired the heaters and searching thru the package for the caps for the tone controls etc... then I'll solder them in.

It is helping a great deal. Thank you!

I noticed you also built an Express - how was that build compared to this one? Was it easier or harder?

Definitely more wires in Overtone... it needs more time, more patience, harder to track down errors.
With Express it's all about lead dress, it can get tricky if the amp turns out instable... but to me it's easier to build
 ;)

Yesterday I played both amps against my friends SF Twin...

...and the verdict is.... both amps can do the Twin sound  8)

We connected the Twin to G12-65 cab just to get as close as possible.

To get there, we had to set the tone stack on both amps differently...
On OTS I had to add bass and take away some mids... on BM I had to take away some bass and add treble. I even used a bright switch.
Both amps were more punchy and dynamic, with more presence (BM had even more presence I would say), I guess that old Twin is in need of a recap job.

Bottom line, both amps can do Fender tone reasonably well. I knew OTS can do that... I did this test before. I just didn't know where BM is compared to Twin.

 ;)

Excellent stuff Mcinku- most useful- I'm about to pull the trigger and order a HRM Bluesmaster pretty much on your recommendations so far- although I think I'll get Nik to do the build!  If you get a minute I'm most interested in your comments on the ease of set-up for the internal EQ for OD- This is the one thing on my current OTS that I wish I had more control over- geting a nice sparkly clean tone usually resulted in a fizzy/too bright lead tone & visa versa- I'm also going for the 100w version this time for the added headroom- any side by side comparisons would be most useful... thanks for the great job too- I'm sure we're all indebted here for your dedication!

Well I still have all my little HRM trimmers set at noon. It just sounds good to me, so I didn't tinker with that yet. What I learned about BM till now, is that setting clean sound takes some effort. Setting everything at noon doesn't work with BM. OTS will take that setting just fine. A good OD tone on the other hand is much easier to get from BM.

PS: I'm still not totaly acquainted with BM... I still need some time to get to know it better.
 ;)

Here's something I find very useful.
...for example to daisy-chain amps if you're Bonamassa kind of guy  8) ... or to power loop effects, if you keep them near the amp.
 ;)

Nice one!
USE BIG TOGGLE SWITCH FOR GROUND LIFT !!!

Cheers

Now, that's an awesome idea.
Thanks man!!

 ;)

It looks like you wired the ground switch. In the diagram it has the switch, but it says "not wired." If you have connected it, what does it do and what did you connect it to? The fuse next to it and the power?

I did not connect the ground switch. That blue wire goes directly from fuse to power.
Check my last picture (the additional power connector)...
 ;)

Hi GUYS
            Here are some pics of my HRM 50 ,work in progress, could you guys have a quick look to see if there are any UN-deliberate mistakes so far, as next I will be putting boards in , thanks to MCINKU for his useful thread , although I have to be careful that I do not end up with a BM instead of HRM LOL  ;D  I appreciate any feed back as this is my first ever build   
cheers Derek        http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo57/SOFTMC/DSC01744.jpg

                           http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo57/SOFTMC/DSC01745.jpg

                           http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo57/SOFTMC/DSC01746.jpg

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo57/SOFTMC/DSC01747.jpg

                      http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo57/SOFTMC/DSC01748.jpg     

Well I didn't follow the HRM layout to check everything but from where I'm standing, it looks good.
 8)

keep us posted
 ;)

Hey Mcinku,

Where are the BM HRM and OTS comparison clips????? ???
You’ve promised us long time ago !!! >:(

I’m watching you !!! ;D

I second that emotion- almost ready to order a 100w OTS but can't decide between the three versions! Any comparison would be totally useful...

Damn, I will do it... I had everything ready last weekend but my wife got sick and I was stuck with the kids.  :(

Perhaps next weekend, she's getting better each day... I'll certainly try my best.
 ;)

If you go to YouTube, there is a guy called marinblues (I have seen him in these forums) who has clips of the OTS and the OTS HRM that are pretty cool.  1 video, in particular, has them side by side for comparison.  I think it is called "
To HRM or not to HRM."  I'm not sure if there are any clips of the Bluesmaster version yet.

OK
    Finished my HRM  ;D really enjoyed the process , but it was a bumpy ride at times due to my inexperience but I seem to have made it.

3 days ago finished all the main board installation and desparate to get to the testing, put in my valves and the very last pre amp valve would not go in   ??? after further examination found solder in three of the sockets arrgh!! attempt to desolder and ended up melting the socket with solder iron. F_ K  so have ordered new 9 pin socket (CERAMIC) so despondant I tried to forget how close I was to trying out my new amp then brainwave, my Marshall jubilee could supply me with a pre amp socket which I could refit when spare arrives, so back in buisness . fitted same and a FINAL CHECK over revealed 3 faults  my mains socket was on upside down, so live was to neutral, the resistor to speaker jacks was on wrong side and a wire to ground was missing. repaired these and fired her up IT WORKS !! but was very noisy at first but found loose ground at bias tag now ok.  oh yes and foot sw did not work missing ground tag. all in all I am pleased with outcome .  bias at 34 and 40 mv (tubes must be unmatched) 480V plate voltage at 6L6 .TUBES.

SO WHAT do the internal trimmers do ?
                                    Cheers Derek
I will post pic and clip at some point once my jubilee is sorted.

With PI trimmer you can balance the PI section for better power amp performance... unfortunately this can't be set without the use of a scope. If your PI tube is balanced just turn it to 12:00 ... but it would be best if some amp tech would set it up for you.

The middle one is pre OD trimmer. Definitely play with that one. One of the most important things for shaping OD.

The last trimmer is for setting the FET input level.

OK guys here it is...
... but let me say something, I'm not happy with the outcome. This recordings do not reflect what I hear from these amps...everything sounds way to dark. I tried my best but it was a while since I was recording anything and I had only 2 hours and I didn't wanted to eq enything... but at least the conditions were the same for both so here goes nothing.

I used my ES339 for this session... I recorded first 12 bars clean, than OD and last OD+PAB. Clean was neck pup the rest is bridge with tone slightly dimmed.
As you can see on the pic, I used Fender style (open back) 1xG12-65 cab with SM57 in the face and AT4040 as a room mic.
(http://www.jam-world.de/Musik/Mman/Ctone/studio.jpg)

I recorded everything in one go, I didn't change tonestack from clean to OD. You can see how I used the pots in this second picture.
BTW all switches were on OFF.
(http://www.jam-world.de/Musik/Mman/Ctone/amps.jpg)

...and I had klein, RV5 and TC Vintage Delay in the loop (way to much as you can hear from the clips).

OTS -btw my PAB on the OTS is moded as BM one
http://www.jam-world.de/Musik/Mman/Ctone/OTS_ES339.mp3 (http://www.jam-world.de/Musik/Mman/Ctone/OTS_ES339.mp3)
BM-HRM (all HRM pots are at 12:00 - didn't played with those yet  ;))
http://www.jam-world.de/Musik/Mman/Ctone/BM-HRM_ES339.mp3 (http://www.jam-world.de/Musik/Mman/Ctone/BM-HRM_ES339.mp3)

This is the best I could do in a hurry,... maybe it would be best if I wouldn't post this and perhaps do it again latter on but I promised, so here it goes.
 :-\

Hey Mcinku,

Thanks my man, really lovely playing and nice clips too.
OTS sounds great for my taste – very Dumbley.
BM HRM is nice but different, especially in the drive department, on the recording anyway.
Best wishes

mcinku, you've done a really good job there. I really like the BM tone though theres a slight buzzy edge to the OD, though that might be in the recording.

Thanks guys...
I'm a little frustrated, 'cause this didn't turn out as well as I thought. I did hear, that D amps are not easy amps to record... and I was alone doing this, so I didn't bother finding sweet spot on the cab.
...and also, as you can see my master volume was a little shy of 3. Even that was a little to much for my room but I can tell you when those amps a really cooking, they sound way different compared to that.

...but you all know that already  ;D


 ;)

Maybe next time try with the master at 8 and clean volume/ratio at 2 (you'll have to raise the level aswell). Its how Matt Schofield runs his TR.

First of all I want to thank you for taking the time to do these comparative sound clips of these two models. I am considering to buy one of these in the future and was wondering which one to chose just like apparently many others on this forum. Both of these amps sound great in there own way but I would like to request if you have time, to try another one with all the amp settings exactly identical. In the pictures you have some settings at different levels and that Im sure colors the sound differently. Thanks again for the great clips

Unfortunately I cleared up all my gear,... this week I'm too busy for anything really and next week my vacation starts... so this will not happen anytime soon but I can say this even without clips...
OTS has more mids and BM has more bass. While OTS will work with everything at 12:00, that will not work for BM, at lest for me. Way to much bass and not enough body... at least for clean.
I tried to set the amps so they could be used in clean, clena+PAB, OD and OD+PAB without changing tonestack. The way amp should be used.

Yah I thought you had a good reason for settings. With your description; more mids with the overtone and more bass with the bluesmaster I imagine with that in mind that the overtone might cut through a bit better in a band situation and stick out a bit better in the mix.

Well at first I thought the same but when you play these amps really loud they act differently. OTS sound farty on the bass side and a little congested in the mids compared to BM. BM has better string definition as well.
That's why I said that my clips are not exactly what I can hear in person.
Judging these amps from clips or even worse, from youtube is really not fair. It will give you an idea but far from the real thing.

Have a good holiday mcinku. Going anywhere nice?

Thanks man,
nothing special... I'm taking my kids and wife to this thermal park.
The good thing is, that this spa is in nice historical town, so a lot of cool places to visit.
 ;)

Hi Mcinku,

Good job on the clips, thnx for taking the time, nice playing too.
The ods is indeed very recognizeable dumble, but a bit dark on the recording. The BM sounds a bit odd. I hope you can make a good recording where you can demonstrate the sweet spot of this amp.
Have a good vaccation!

Grtz Erwin

My room is a very dark sounding one, that's fact no 1... I usually use deep switch at home (which will make lo end tighter) but I didn't want to use it, 'cause standard OTS does not have one. On top of that, my Fender style cab has a big baffle board and it's an open back... all this will make things even darker. I do have a rear baffle, so I could transform this cab from open to closed back but I didn't think of that at the time.
Now that I know how this amp sounds like recorded in my room, I think next time I could improve on that for better clips.


BTW... OTS is loaded with TungSols and BM-HRM has JJ tubes all over. Just in case anybody wants to know.
 ;)

cool clips mcinku nice  playing' btw

Bump

I'm using this thread a lot right now.

Mcinku,
I just wanted to thank you for this thread.
Being a first-time amp builder who wants to build a Overtone, it's very encouraging to me!
I'll be ordering a HRM BM next week and will be using this thread to help me along.

Thanks again!
Bob

You're welcome Bob.
I'm glad this is helping... after all that's why I did it.

Nik is giving us affordable kits, treads like these some encouragement, perhaps some knowledge and that's all what it takes.

It was never cheaper to get these kind of amps... so I say GO FOR IT  ;)
Tone like this should never be reserved just for few fortunate ones.

Build it and play the hell out of it.
 ;D

Yes, I heard your clips and I could say that both amps definitely share the same vibe.

I also learned that this amp responds very differently when used at low volumes compared to band levels. When I first built the amp I thought I would have to mod it, cause it had way to much bass when played at home... but at gig level all that extra bass was gone... at gig volumes it just feels right.

Not a fuzz user but I tried my BB and RC along with TS9 and all pedals work just fine... even better compared to my nonHRM OTS.
But nowadays I just don't use pedals anymore (with that amp)...like you said it takes some time to get too know the amp but now I'm not going back. Feeling the amp responding to my touch is just priceless, no pedal can give you that.

I will, I promise... some day.   :P :)

Hi mcinku,
I have a couple questions if you don't mind.
On the power board in this pic (step 9), can you tell me where those 3 black wires are going? The Layout says OT/CT/Choke but I'm not sure where that is.

1.) In your step #8 pic there is a black wire left over from the OT primaries, is that the wire for the OT on the power board?
2.) What is CT stand for and where is it located?
3.) Doesn't the choke have 2 wires? If one wire goes to the power board, where does the other choke wire go?


I hope these questions make sense...


Thanks!

Black wires are Choke and OT,... on the primary side you have CT wire which goes 200uF filter cap.

Yes that one  ;)

Not sure I think it's Central Tap.

Both wires go to the power board. One end to the 200uF filter cap and the other end to the 20uF filter cap.

Thanks for your help!

Hi, new forum member first post. Just starting my OTS build. I hate to say this, and maybe I'm wrong but looking at the pics in the first post in the thread, I think you've used the wrong wire for the heaters. If you check out the pic here: http://www.ceriatone.com/images/completeAmpsPic/CTOvertone/c11B.jpg and other pics of amp internals, you'll see that heavier gage wire is used for heaters. Understandably they must be required to conduct a fair amount of amperage, because they are after all the tube heaters....

Edit:The insulation on the wire supplied as "heater wire" on the parts list is much thicker, but the actual internal wire itself is just a little larger than that of the supplied black and white wires. So this may not be a big issue...

the wires I used for heaters will handle the current just fine.

BTW this is Niks BM HRM picture...
(http://www.ceriatone.com/images/completeAmpsPic/Overtone_HRM50Bluesmaster/fb6B.jpg)
same wire as mine.

I used this one cause it's easier to wire. I used the heavier gage wire on my TW build and I didn't like it... way harder to do it right.
 ;)