Ceriatone Forum

So I'm looking at using a 100w BM head w/ a 1x12 forte 3d cab. But my first choice speaker was a g12-65, and don't think that'll handle the head when run at 100w. So I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for alternatives that are similar to g12-65...

Or, has anyone had experiences with these other speakers which i think are possible alternatives for me...

1) Weber CV123
2) Scumback M75-LHDC

Keep in mind. i don't play high gain stuff, I generally play clean w/ pedals or medium overdrive, but i don't like the ice peak clean of fenders. goin for a john mayerish type clean tone/verge of break-up blues tone.

Not really The answer you asked for, but if dont need 100w why not pull out 2 output tubes and put The impedance selector to 4 ohm and you Can use a single 12g65.

Thanks for the reply! I dont know anything about electronics and have never changed tubes or anything like that, so i'd rather not mess with it. But I'll take it into consideration if i can't find speaker alternatives. I also heard that the tone is much fuller and has more body when run at 100w.

EVM12L is my favorite and I have tryed loads of speakers and they are indestructible ..well almost .

Jubeman
I was just about to post the same suggestion
+1

Or if you havent already bought the 1x12 you could go with 2x12 instead.
Todd

Thanks for the replies guys. I haven't gotten it yet, but I'm pretty set on a 1x12 for portability/back reasons, but i do need the volume for my basher drummer and outdoor gigs. That EVM12L is lookin like a champ, it's received good reviews and sounds like it has the qualities i'm lookin for. So that's definitely top of my list right now.

From what I understand though, the EV and g12-65 are different breeds. I've heard the BM w/ the g12 and it sounded sweet, really sweet. So until I need to make the final decision, I'm still open to suggestions for a g12-65 alternative.

You could always try the WGS ET65 clone like I did (for $69).  I don't have a way to compare against a Celestion 12-65 but it sounds pretty sweet in my 1x12 with my new BM50, especially as I break things in.  If you blow it out, it is less money at least.

http://wgs4.com/content/et65

If you are set on using a 100 w amp, I would build 2 speaker cabs a 2x12 with G12-65 type speakers to use full 100 w power, and a 1x12 with an EVM-12 for full power. The weber cerwin vega clone would not be a good match for the OTS IMHO. Also, you can do as bluesfender suggested and pull two tubes and switch the impedance selector to 4 ohms, or have a half power switch installed, which in 100 w models switches two tubes off instead of going into triode mode AFAIK

FWIW i use weber 12-65's with pre-rola treatment and they sound great. I've heard the scumbacks sound great too

Go for a EVM12L Classic and build a TL806 cab, perfect for these type of amps :)

Did you try any Alnico speakers?
Many people prefer them for the BM, I definitely do

The only 100w Alnico I know of is the Fane AXA12

Otherwise 2 x Celestion Gold is the most popular for Alnico AFAIK

Cheers
Tone

Totally agree with Nairbr and Tone Control.
Best speakers for 100 BM are:

1.   EVM-12L
2.   Fane Studio 12L
3.   Fane AXA12 alnico
4.   Celestion G12 K100
5.   Jensen Jet Tornado

Good luck

I use Eminence Swamp Thang. I actually use two of them in a 2x12 cab but they are rated at 150W so one can easily sustain a 100W head.

I like them a tad more than a G12-65. To me they have some more sparkle. I've read somewhere that they could compare to some Fane but I wouldn't now for myself.
Punchy, very balanced, clear warm clean, great OD.

I've done some clips to compare: http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=29.msg14149#msg14149 (http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=29.msg14149#msg14149)

Alternatively you could consider an Eminence Red White & Blues. They're supposed to be close to a G12-65 and are the speakers installed by Fuchs in their ODS. I find mine a bit dull though, but not a bad speaker at all. At 120W, one should manage your amp.

Cheers
Fabien

I had a Fuchs ODS30 with a 2x12 cab, with Red White and Blues
The amps sounded nice, a bit flatter and blander once I had the BM50 to compare it with.

I tried the Fuchs 2x12 with every amp I had. It was the darkest cab, and only very bright amps worked with it, it was very poor with the BM50.
The only amps I liked it with was the Express when distorting heavily. I have several other cabs that the Express sounds much better with.

The Fuchs ODS was tuned to match those speakers I think, and every other amp sounded quite poor with them, a very flat rounded-off tone.

The BM needs a lot of help in being bright enough (if you run it cleaner).
On every amp I own, the presence is set to 2-4, on the BM it's set to 9, even with a Celestion Gold
Until I had the Celestion Gold and the Fane, I had preferred the Fuchs ODS, and thought the BM50 didn't live up to its reputation.
Now the Fuchs ODS belongs to someone else, and the BM50 is my joint favourite amp with my DC30

On that subject, Matchless and Badcat cabs sound OK with the BM as far as I recall

Anyway, if the G12-65 is close to a RW&B, I'd leave it alone, I think it's for Marshall high gain style amps anyway, this is a Blackface fender style amp, and they fitted Alnicos back then.

I do fancy trying an EVM-12L at some point though, Pickmaster is an expert, so it must be good.

Actually, check this review: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=190607 (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=190607)

i don't think the Red, White and Blues sounds close to a G12-65 at all, in my opinion. although the design is similar with the ribs on the cone and the mesh dome, it is a different magnet structure all together, and has a higher wattage raiting as well, which effects the overall tone of the speaker. that being said, it couldn't hurt to try it, or its "cousin" as emience says, the governor.

In reality, it all comes down to what your ears like, and what tone you want to hear. Try out a bunch and see what ya like! ya never know, having a vast collection of speakers could come in handy one day, as they all sound different and may help you find a tone that is "in your head" down the road

Yes, keep a good range in stock. Tastes do differ, I definitely use my amps in my own way
But if you're buying a speaker  for a specific amp, my advice is to start with the speakers everyone else recommends.
As I say, I tried several with the BM, and was not impressed with the amp until I bought Celestion Golds, I might have even sold the amp and kept the Fuchs

I agree with that as well. I went with the G12-65's as that was what the majority of guys recommended for the OTS. I will be trying the EVM-12 and Celestion Golds as well, just to see what the sound differences are, and may even try mixing them up

the majority said G12-65 for the OTS or the BluesMaster?
I can run my OTS with several speakers, but the BM is fussier

Mixing drivers is worth trying, but the results can be counter-intuitive, since with 2 in parallel, you usually don't just get 50/50 the characteristics of both, you get (like with having kids) chunks of each one's characteristics, since the inductance/reactance/impedance/whatever is not similar for 2 diff drivers, so a bright driver may sound dull, since the other driver had lower impedance for higher frequencies, etc.
I found running a Fane AXA12 and a Celestion Gold in parallel that the Gold was louder, even though the sensitivity indicates the opposite.
So - approach mismatching drivers without thinking the result is predictable.
If you do this, I'd start with the Matchless and Badcat pairings first, Mark Sampson put a lot of time and money into finding those combinations (which are much cheaper than alnico drivers too)

absolutely! it's interesting that you found that the Celestion was louder than the Fane. I was thinking that if i went with the EVM it would overpower the Weber. Hmm.

As far as recommendations go, the 3 top recommendations I got were #1 EVM12, #2 G12-65, and #3 Celestion Gold. My final choice was determined ultimately by putting them in a hat and pulling out the 1265. I went with Weber because i have used their drivers before and have always been happy with em. So far, they seem to be a great match for my particular Bluesmaster, which doesn't seem to be as bass heavy as some of the others now that it has broken in and the OD channel defintely isn't since i bypassed the HRM tonestack. I def want to try the EVM's though. I think two of those will be my next purchase

How about fane medussas, scumback m75-hdlc, or wgs blackhawks? Anyone have experiences with these who would like to provide tonal descriptions/opinions? Especially with this amp. I'm more concerned with the cleans and slightly overdriven blues tones.

All of your inputs have been great so far. I'm leaning toward the Evm12l but I hear it can get kind of ice picky. 100w Fane axa is also in mind. For me the celestion g1265 is ideal, but can't run it in a 100w 112.

what was your final decision?
I have just bought a Fuchs EVM12L cab, so should have tried everything bar the G12-65 soon

btw does anyone know what drivers are in the Badcat 2x12? a v30 and something else with no label on it

cheers
Tone

I just picked up an older EVM-12L in a beat up 1x12 cab for cheap on CL, but the speaker is in excellent shape.  As a single speaker, it seems more defined and significantly louder than my WGS ET65.  If I were to run only one speaker, this is now it for me.  I'm thinking of pairing it with a Weber Michigan 12 (Weber's take on the EV) in a 2x12.  Has anyone compared the two?

@Tone Control The amp is being built as we speak, but I'm gonna go with the EVM 12L as of now. The head will be a 100w hrm bluesmaster, so the speaker needed to handle that. Pretty much only the EVM can do that; without having to worry about it when pushed.

I'll let you know how it turns out (in about 6 wks). Anyone else have experience with the EVM's in a 1x12? Tonal descriptions would be nice/pros and cons of the speaker.

Great thread... 

Here's 2 more:  JBL g125 and g135.  Not made anymore and hard to find.  Both have the same motors, 3 inch flat ribbon wire voice coil, 12 1/2 pound magnet.  They came from some of the same engineers that did up the Altec 417/418 and EVM 12l/12s/15l speakers.  g125 is rated at
102db 1 watt 1 meter, the 135 at 104.  Frequency response from both speakers is perfect for D-style tones. 

JBL took in most of the guitar speakers in the market over a 3 year period into their lab to do the research to come up with these, and they only sold them for a year or two.   

I have an ev 12s style speaker made by Altec before EV came into existence.  It is very similar to the 12l except for a slightly shallower cone.  Between the JBL and the EV type the JBL is darker and a bit smoother.  Both have big bottom, full mids, and top end capable of reproducing excellent harmonic detail.

Agree with pickmaster about the FANE AXIOM STUDIO 12L. 200 w - Sensitivity: 102 dB - a classic speaker, that has been on the market in 20-30 years. Very similar to the EV12L, but without the icepick frequencies that the EV has.

Another fine speaker for Dumble amps is the old Eminence Kappa pro, which is also quite similar to the EV, but again without the (IMO) annoying frequencies that the EV seem to suffer from if you use it at home at lower volumes. It's way better when you play louder, IMO.

I use a TL806 type bas-reflex cabinet for these above mentioned speaker units.

My preferred speaker  - I must admit, is a Cel 12G65 in an open back cabinet - its portable and loud.

So I guess my 'hall of fame' or canon for Dumble amps would be:

1) Celestion 12G65 (either 1x12 or 2x12 in open back)
2) Fane Studio 12L (In ported TL806 cabinet)
3) Eminence Kappa Pro (In ported TL806 cabinet)
4) EV12L (In ported TL806 cabinet) - for live use (not bedroom practice)

Havent tried other 'open cabinet' speakers, but I'm sure a lot of the new'er Eminence speakers are god choices as well, such as the Emi tonker , tonker lite, swamp thing and cannabis rex.

Have heard a lot of positive things about the warehouse WGS speakers.

+1 I agree. Same config here but this instead:

1) Celestion 12G65 (2x12 open back)
2) Eminence Texas Heat (In ported 1x12 cabinet)
3) EV12L (2x12 cab)

Actually I've been digging a ported 2x12 with a Celestion g1265 and an Eminence Texas heat lately...

I have an really old EVM12L which I use in a slightly oversized 1x12 (Zilla Cabs Mini Modern) with my Bluesmaster 100. Initial impressions at home volume were that this amp has a serious amount of bass end which was hard to dial out - opening the cab back tamed this slightly but the amp is not as bass heavy at gigging volume. I haven't noticed any ice pick tendencies - maybe because of the speakers age?

I'm liking the amp better with the bright switch on ATM so it may be worth considering changing or modding this at some stage. The amp can sound quite muffled with it off but I'm still experimenting with adjusting the presence (currently set high) and treble (set around 4/5) controls.

I've had this speaker up against a loud 4x12 and it actually cut through better than the half stack! These speakers seem to be bomb proof so I think you're making a good choice.

There are 2 reasons I can think of for why you get less bass live
(A) any speaker put near a wall or corner will get reinforcement of bass frequencies. Small hifi speakers depend on this. On stage, you lose this completely
(B) The BM amps vary in trebly-ness hugely depending on whether you run the input vol high and the master vol low (brighter), or the input vol low and the master vol high (darker) Do you run it quieter with the input vol or the master? I have to use very high settings on the treble and presence, and very low on the bass.
I think this is a dark amp, which may well match the EVM12L well, I'll tell you when I collect my EVM12L soon. It sounds as if an EVM12L is a very useful addition to anyone's tone pallette anyway, so it should be low-risk

The way I've been using my Bluesmaster sounds messed up - Settings are usually in an around the following: volume 5, treble 4, mid 4, bass 2, master vol 5, overdrive trim 12 o'clock, overdrive 4, overdrive volume 4.

I've been using the overdrive channel for dirty rhythm sounds and switching to the clean channel (sometimes with a slight boost along with the clean PAB, for solos.. The clean channel seems to cut through and emphasise each note much better than the O/d channel, which no matter how much I tweak, just seems to have washed out mids...

@ Tone - u said the amp gets brighter with the input volume pushed and the master kept low.. Does this not overly compress or saturate the O/D channel or do you set the o/d trimmer pretty low...

Do you gig your Bluesmaster?

there's no one way to use these, so you can use clean as lead if you want.

I have clean as a nice clean channel, and loud (gig volume). OD just adds a little grit
For a strat, Vol=2-3
Treble=8-9
Mid=3-4
Bass=2
Drive=3
Level=5
Master=7-8
Presence=8-9
HRM set to roll off the treble a lot
OD trim around 12 oclock

My point was that it's a dark amp, and at gig volume, the way I use it is darker still, so to avoid using the bright switch, I dial up the treble and presence a lot
With a humbucker, I do use the bright switch instead
I haven't really used the OD much with input Volume high

Make sure you have the deep switch right (Up on mine)
Nik's layout diagram is reversed (and he was building them reversed too), so deep is on when down on mine, which would add to your bass problems