Ceriatone Forum

I made a start yesterday, mostly metalworking. Not my strong point. I roughed out on paper what I wanted and where it was to go but the first job was to make sure it would all fit. The space inside was large enough, it was the area on the front and rear fascias that as most critical especially as I wanted a power distribution section to keep the number of power leads trailing to a socket to a minimum.

As it turned out the biggest problem was the height inside the case. The pot solder tags project too high and would touch the lid if I didn't turn them and the jack sockets that Nik supplied have great long solder nibs which were also a problem. I swapped them for a different sort, but in retrospect I should have drilled the holes slightly off the centre line.

The 9v transformer I cannibalised from a linear regulated supply house in a plastic case, which was inordinately difficult to get apart, they glue them together it seems, had to resort to hack saw to get at the innerds. I also had to separate the regulator from the tranny otherwise the  contacts would have been above the level of the lid. As it was I had to cut a hole in the lid for the transformer but there's no risk of contacts touching now.

Front face plate from left to right. Send, Bright switch, return, bright switch, recovery, Bypass LED, 9v fuse, 9v power LED, 9v power switch, Mains fuse, mains power.

Power sockets now fitted, circuit boards mounted on insulating risers. Face plate re-attached. Holed drilled to for securing tranny. I couldn't use a metal clamp over the top of the tranny, it would have added to the height so resorted to using ties.

The green blocks are padding to keep the conductors from getting anywhere near the case. The regulator is mounted to the side wall with one self tapping screw into the heatsink.

Power socket wiring now completed. 9volt wiring partly completed, sufficient to power it up and check the tranny, regulator, LED, switch etc. The green LED is on just not very bright, deliberately, I don't want it looking like the bridge of the Enterprise.

Face plate and outside of case was sprayed matt black

Star ground fixed but not all connections made.

Jack sockets were a pain. there was very little room to manoeuvre under the lip so I tack soldered the solid earth connector then removed the sockets to complete all the other wiring. I also took the relay board out and colour coded the connections for later reference.

Bypass switch was a very tight fit, but I wanted a very robust one. This is the one you'll hit if something goes wrong mid song!!

Rear fascia is, from left to right in the photo, Input, send, return, output (reversed from Niks layout), bypass switch, footswitch jack, two 9v out sockets, 3 mains power out sockets, mains in socket.

I was hoping to get more done today but the two colour LED I was intending to use for the bypass/fx on LED blew whilst testing it, so that prevented me from completing the 9v side of the relay. Should have bought a few spares.

Will add more pics if I get chance to any more on it during the week. Also need to clarify with Nik how to bias the FET.

Another lesson learnt. Things take at least twice as long as you bargained on. this will probably take as long start to finish as my OTS build did.

I have a layout drawing for the Klein and one for the bypass switching, when I've finished it and it all works (if !) I'll combine the two drawings into a full layout.

Hi

Have you built your Kleinulator to the latest soecs?
There has bee a small addition to prevent tthe unit from blowing up.
I don't know the technical details but it includes a Zener (whatever that may be)

Not sure to be honest. I'm just using the kit parts bought from Nik about a month ago. I know the board is different from the layout Nik sent me which shows some type of diode!

So if it blows up it might not be my fault ! ;D

Turns out my board was built before the new mods. Nik is sending me the parts to upgrade it. Layout was correct.


This might cause a bit of a delay in finishing the project.

looking good, that's allot of filtering for a 9v device, perhaps others can chime in, I would have thought a simpler regulated power supply would suffice.
The zener  is protection, for spike/surge  and if the polarity is connected backward by accident.
what is the component marked as "10"?

Nick

10ohm resistor.

My 9v supply is rated 500mW which I would hope will be sufficient. All the filtering is part of the Klein kit though somehow voltages higher than 9v are being generated. My electronics knowledge is insufficient to understand how!

Hi,i am watching this topic with great interest and wondering what the IC is near the filter caps.
Thanks in advance,Ed

Those that know might chip in here !!!!

Somehow the circuitry is generating 20+ volts from a 9v supply so I guess that chip might have something to do with that.

it's  voltage doubler max1044

Depending on the diodes used, you can get a voltage from your power supply at 30-40V.
This link posted at ampgarage explains it well. http://www.geofex.com/circuits/+9_to_33.htm (http://www.geofex.com/circuits/+9_to_33.htm)

Completed all the wiring I can today. Signal cables were a bit fiddly since I needed to ensure grounding of all the shielding without creating any loops.

Signal cable runs are longer than in the small box format as supplied by Nik, but this will be more than compensated for by the much shorter cables to the other rack unit.

9v supply to relay board and to 9v outlet sockets.

A couple of wires to solder to the power supply board but I'm just waiting on the diode and resistor from Nik. I could have got the diode from RS but minimum order was 100, plus its in their extended range so attracts a £10 order surcharge! So I'll wait.

Also decided to add another LED socket rather than use the two colour LED. Left one indicates FX loop is ON, right one indicates Bypass engaged. Both on indicates bypass is selected on the rear switch whilst footswitch is plugged in ie ERROR.

I do hope this damn thing works.........!!!

Parts arrived  today with my new DC-30 kit. I hope to find time over the holidays to get it all finished and tested, but the temptation to start building the DC-30 first will be difficult to resist. :)

Fitted the diode and resistor and coupled remaining wires up, then found , by a process of elimination that the relay switching was not as expected so had to swap 4 wires over there.

Set the bias on the FET to 22v as per Niks instructions.

Also had a rethink of the footswitch/bypass wiring and made that simpler. Had to replace one LED that had blown. That got all the switching working as expected.....

Fitted it all together, the contacts on the tranny were mighty close to the lid so had to insert some foam pads. Mounted it in the shell I made for it.

The the time came to do a full test, and lo and behold it worked !! I have had to use some balanced patch cables that are a bit too long and could be picking up some noise. Will set it up properly with some colour coded George l's so its all neat around the back. The noise is like a low hiss and is not really noticeable.

So far its very encouraging, not had much time to do a great deal of testing, but being able to bypass is worth its weight in gold for the purpose of A/B'ing the sounds, just flick the bypass switch and both the Klein and any FX are out of the loop. I'm finding the Klein is a little too bright with both switches on and just maybe theres a little less bottom end, but I'd say I'm pretty happy with the sound so far.

I think I'm going to find the G# annoying though. Its too difficult to know what patch has what effects/levels applied. I'll have to make up a laminated card that lives in the bottom of the rack unit. I intedn using the G-Switch to swap patches, but that switch won't live on my board, it'll just sit either on top of the unit or on the floor next to it. So far though the reverbs and delays sound nice and the chorus isn't bad either, good enough to allow me to get rid of my Boss unit.

I will post some better pics when the light is better and I get to finish off the rear connections. Alos as soon as I get time I'll redo the layout so its correct (it isn't at the moment). If anyone wants a parts list I might be able to knock that together also.

I also made another identical shell which I haven't covered yet (it always pays to make two incase you balls one up). So if anyone in the UK is interested, its for sale, cheap as is, or I can finish it off.

Looks great Hywel, hope it sounds good too at the band high volume situations.
Cheers

Thanks Doc, this time I'm quite hopeful. I was disappointed with the G# on its own in the loop a real tone sucker, but now I've just left the G# volume at 12 0'clock and balanced the volumes with the Klein.

I still haven't worked out which volume/level knob to raise/lower, I've just been jacking them all up a bit at the same time. I dare say I will find theres a minor tone difference by keeping one lower and raising the others. Could do with some experienced K users input really.

Final photo showing mods to bypass/relay circuit.

And here's the layout drawing.

If anyone has any queries or questions please ask, but I'm not very clued up on electronics!

EDIT New layout drawing 03-01-2008 Correcting a mistake I made.

OK chaps, theres one error on the layout, I've connected tthe incoming signal to the wrong pole of the main bypass switch. Its just on the drawingnot on the real thing. Will edit and post new one asap.

More seriously ther is a volume drop even in bypass compared with when the unit is disconnected and looking at the wiring the Recovery pot is still connected and is draining some signal  I guess. The recovery pot behaves strangely when in FX mode also, it gets louder to about 2 o'clock then loses a small amount of volume therafter.

Might have to rethink the wiring :-\

This is probably getting a bit obsessive, but to get true bypass switching I think I'm going to need to install another relay since I need to be able to switch both the  send and return signals to prevent the volume loss problem.

Needs a little bit of re-thinking. Volume loss is not severe, just annoying since I went to all this trouble to avoid a volume loss!!   >:(

I have reworked the drawing and I'm going to use two relays so I can sort the problem properly. One relay will switch both the send and return signals so i get a proper bypass and the other realy will do the footswitching and LED's.

Will order the relay board from Nik and put the wheel in motion. I will also need to replace the hardwire bypass switch on the rear panel with a 3PDT version in order to separate the return signal completely.

Wll keep you posted.

Finally completed the rebuild with two relays and now it ROCKS. No loss of volume or tone, this is how I should have done it in the first place.

Any loss of 240v or 9v in the Kleinulator results in a true bypass, with an almost inaudible switch over. Footswitching works as it should. Really pleased with the way it behaves now. I've completed the rack box with a G# and a BBE 362 and the FX sound is BIG. Will post a layout dwg as soon as I have completed it and pics of the unit as soon as I can take some in good light.

Hywel,
Are you running both the Sonic Maximizer and Kleinulator together? What do you set the level on the G Sharp at? Thanks for sharing this with us.

John

Hi John, yes I am running both G# and Sonic Max together, unfortunately it was going to prove way too difficult to isolate and footswitch them independantly.

I've got the input gain on the G# set at 3 o'clock, the I set the Klein Send and return both at 2 o'clock and recovery at 3 o'clock. Bright 2 on. Both bright switches on is too much.

Sonic maximiser Lo Contour 3 o'clock and Process 10 o'clock.

Footswitching bypasses all 3, the K, G# and the Sonic Max. It might have been a nice option to footswitch the effects leaving the Klein in the circuit at all times, but I thought that was a little risky being as I built it!! If something fails the hardbypass switch on the back takes everything out of circuit leaving me with the raw amp with about 2-3 foot of cable in the FX loop.

Hmmm, very interesting. It seems as though we have come to similar conclusions on the sonic maximizer. Depending in on the room, and guitar (SC vs HB) I set low contour between 12 and 3. Process on anything above 10 adds too much hi freq under any circumstance with the OTS in OD mode. (I just checked my BBE settings from my Friday gig which was in a smallish, carpeted, wood paneled room, it was set as: LoC 12.5, process 10 [as you said], I was playing my strat or tele for all sets).

I usually keep the G Sharp at 12 and adjust it up if I start getting covered by the instruments, which seems to happen as the night goes on. I notice a loss of tone below 12.

Is the K'lator last in the chain?

I've been on the fence about this kleinulator. I don't want a box sitting top of my amp. Your rack version seems to be the ticket, if I was going to have one. Can you describe what it does, say in comparison to the BBE which I am familiar with.

Bottom line: do you think it is a worthwhile addition to one's rig? and why? Thanks 

Now I've not really had chance to try this out at rehearsal/gig yet. I not losing any tone at all set as it is and I will try lowering it, but the red input lights only come on very rarely set at 3:00 . If you're not using a Klein or similar you will lose tone due to the volume loss caused by the G#. I tried it previously before I built the Klein and it sucked tone badly. When I coupled it with a BBE Max X2 (a crossover from my PA, outputs recombined) using the gain of the MaxX2 helped a lot, but it still lost something.


The Klein is the first in the 'chain', though its not really a chain as the Klein provides a sub-loop to the amps loop. I suppose you could put it in the line with other effects but thats not the way it was intended. Imagine the Klein as a replacement for  a 12at7 plus send and return controls on a more modern amp.

The effect of the Klein is very subtle, transparent, and it might be less so if I crank it, I'm not sure yet, but it certainly does the tone no harm and I have tried it with nothing at all in the Kleins FX loop. The BBe is much less subtle, you can hear it immediately you push the bypass button, and with the settings I have I get a clearer enhanced bass and a little more in the top end, but like you if I take it over 10:00 the highs get to be too much.

In as much as it makes the G# work as it should, yes the Klein does its job well. At the moment I'm not sure whether the BBE will stay, we'll see after I've gigged it. The G# I am struggling with, the lack of feedback from the display to tell you what each patch has applied is the biggest negative for me, I'm going to need a laminated card with my presets printed on!!!. Just not good enough in this day and age I'm afraid. I can see me having to u/g to another unit or only use 2 or 3 presets. The FX are good though its just deficient in the usability stakes,

The main reason I wanted the rack unit was simplicity of operation,  tidyness and I wanted to be able to hardbypass to get back to raw amp tone if needed. I also didn't want a box on top of the amp, along with the G# balanced precariously somewhere, plus a 9v supply, and 4 cables, etc etc. Having since tried the TC Nova reverb as demoed by John Edmonds I think if I had tried this first I might not have bothered with the rack unit, but now I've got it I'm going to use it, plus I can have a whole range of good delays and reverbs and a decent chorus.

As soon as I get the layout drawing modded I'll post it here so if you want to build one its pretty straight forward. Indeed the most difficult bit was cutting out for the IEC sockets, I really need a nibbler of some sort. Also when i finish building the 2x12 to match the OTS I'll get a pic of the whole rig aswell.

Thanks for that thorough answer.

So, if I understand correctly you put your effects looped through K'lator and the K'lator looped the the amp's effects loop?

I think that the BBE could go if the K'lator is in use. I don't hear a lot of difference with it at gig volumes with the band. The reasons that I use the rack mount G-Sharp are the same as yours, apparently. I don't use presets so that doesn't bother me. The G FX are not anything special IMO, but they do the job. I recently acquired an AKAI E2 Headrush Delay/Looper which has been a hoot to play around with and I am hoping to find a way to incorporate it into my live rig.

I can see what you mean about the needing nippers by the deformation (visible in your pics) of your metal where you cut the slot. I am wondering if you gave a sketch and the material to a sheet metal shop if the could punch it out cleanly relatively cheap.

Yes.

I think the BBE will do something very different to the K. It does seem (the BBE) to do more than just add lows and highs.


I think I'll adopt the same policy, forget the presets.


That was where the original DPDT switch was to go, it was too tall to get it into the rack so I had to make a cut out and my jigsaw just pulled it all over the place. The new bypass switch is much smaller and I wouldn't need to make this cut out. I guess a machine shop would be able to make the IEC cutouts quickly and neatly, but I was in a hurry to get it made!! I did mean a nibbler not a nipper btw, a nibbler is a (usually compressed air powered) tool that does pretty much what it says, it nibbles away at thin metal, allows you to make complicated cut out shapes.

Hi Hywel,

Congrats on your build, it looks nice! You did have a lot of patience when designing and actually doing it. I like the way you did your relais thing , good thinking!

The IEC inlet isn't too difficult: drilling 4 holes in the corners, I left some space for fine filing(A smaller square for jigsaw).  Then use a jigsaw. The last part is filing till the IEC inlet matches.

Thanks Erwin.

Yes thats how I did my IEC holes but because the rack chassis was Aluminium my jigsaw bent it around a bit. I was using the finest blade I had with no pendulum action to the cutting.

New layout attached. Hope its self explanatory. Most awkward bit is maintaining the continuity of the shielding earth back to the star ground terminal.

If I was doing one again I think I'd put the bypass on the front panel and maybe the footswitch socket aswell. No need to lean over the back then when using it without the footswitch and it would allow you to put the rack unit under the OTS. Initially I didn't want to do this because it would mean that the bypass condition would have had another foot or more of cable in the loop. In retrospect this was probably being over cautious and it would most likely be fine.