Ceriatone Forum

Hi,

I'm interested to know if any of you tried power tubes other than 6L6. Here and there I've read some views on 5881 and 6V6 but not here yet!

I am also interested in this subject.  Especially tonal/dynamic differences between 6L6 and 6V6.  There are just some gigs where the 6L6's are just too much - especially with 212's.  And I don't want to add another moving part (power attenuator). 

Thanks!

JJ 6v6's might be able to take the voltages the OTS will pump through them, but I wouldn't risk using them.

As far as tonal differences, in various amps, I've found that 6v6's are nowhere near as smooth sounding as 6L6's.  In fact, the ragged nature of 6v6 overdrive is such that I can't stand using them for anything but early tweed Fenders.

The OTS has a great master volume, though, and in my experience, even with a 2x12 you should be able to get a good, low volume tone.  Of course, your experience and mine are different, & I hope that you find a solution.

EL-34's are the way to go IMO

It's all down to taste isn't it..! If I understand it correctly you find the 6V6 much too raw sounding in this amp?


Thanks! Could you tell us why? What did you attract to the EL34 tubes?

The first thing i noticed about them is that the low end sounded much tighter. Before the low notes were very mushy. Now instead of a big mushy mess on the low E string i get a nice warm twang.

to me the EL34's can put out a wider frequency range but the frequencies are more balanced giving a nice even tone without harshness but still get a nice bright sparkle on the high end. Where as the 6L6 has a narrower freq range but it has more of the highs and lows it can produce, which is why lots of people find them more sparkly (I find it harsh compared to EL34's) but also the lows are more boomy and muddy.


this weekend i got to crank my amp up with the 34's and it sounded perfect. To me with the 6L6's they sound worse as you turn them up because that loose flabby bas becomes much more pronounced and the sponginess of the 6L6 attack becomes too spongy. The EL34's have a snappier and faster attack especially at low volumes, which is why when you crank them up they sound perfect IMO


Just as a side note the EL34's im using are run of the mill Chinese branded sino/shuguang. biased at about 50ma
The 6L6's i tried were JJ's, A set of mesa 6l6GC's and also tungsol 5881's. IMO the EL34's blew them all away with stock bias (around 37ma)

Thank you for your thorough reply! Couldn't be better :)

Sounds like EL34 is more in my ballpark! Last question: what do you think of the cleans now? I can imagine that without the 6L6, it would sound a bit more British(/Hiwatt?) and less American/Fender style?


To the others: don't forget to tell your stories about 6V6's, 5881's, KT66's...!

I use 5881's (so does LC). I lioke the sound (not a specialist though)
 Unfortunatly it seems I have fried mine cause I blew my HT fuse.
I do have a pair of Winged C's lying around, but I felt they sounded a bit cold. Might try them again though

Thanks Bobgoblin,

All this stuff is so subjective.  I was just looking to lower the power to turn up the amp.

JDOxO makes some interesting points about EL34's.  Somebody had said on some thread a while ago that the power tubes didn't matter tonewise because of the preamp design - which was the first time I'd heard that about a guitar amp.  That prompted my question.

Sounds like most people agree that power tubes make a tonal difference with the OTS?

I think they may have been mistaken. The power tubes certainly matter. I think the point the poster was trying to make is that you generally want the power section to stay clean (so your clean channel stays clean) Youre not really going to want to get power tube overdrive with this settup due to the two channel settup, which is probably why they said that. where as on something like an old Plexi you need the power tube overdrive to get that signature sound.
That being said each power tube has different characteristics when their clean too (although the differences between the tubes become more pronounced when you overdrive them. ex. 6L6 Looseness)

Not only is it the sound that changes but tubes can also change the "feel" of the amp. And IMO the "feel" and tone of an amp can sometimes change how the player plays, which will (again) change the tone to some degree since 75% of tone is in the fingers

So JDOxO,

I read elsewhere that you were really into the kt88's...they still working for you or are you an el34 man?  How did the KT88's compare to the 6l6?

 I have el34's in my Juke 1210 and like them alot but bought the OTS for a different flavor.  Do you get that midrange thing with the el34's?

Thanks again

Noob question.
Is the structure of the OTS such that you can interchange just 6L6's with just EL34's at will or is this a decision that is made at the time of building the amplfier?

Eg I can't put EL34's in my Bassman as it is structured to only use 6L6's.

Thanks

Well i have the KT88's in my other Dumble clone, which is what made me swap to the El34's in my OTS. I wasnt sure if my OTS could handle the 88's stock so i didnt bother.

The 88's are monsters compared to 6L6's way more bass and clean headroom with overall similar tone to the 34's. There are rumors of a KT120 coming out from tung sol in the near future that supposidly can get 160 watts out of a pair. That will be my next tube swap ;D

IMO the 34's did have a slightly different mid range characteristic. I think the biggest difference i notice though is the tighter bass and the highs that sound like the presence knob is turned up alot more

They are swappable on both amps with a rebias. This can be done on most amps provided that the plate voltages are high enough for the EL34's but low enough that the 6L6's wont melt.

you'd probably have to swap thetube rectifier for a SS rectifier on the bassman which will bring the voltages up. Weber and a few other copanies sell plug in replacements

Great replies! Many thanks for that. Keep them coming :)

Anyone tried 5881's or 6V6's?

OOPS. I just ordered those.

I read somewhere though that Larry Carlton uses (old?) Sovtek 5881's in his Dumble(s). I assume the Sovtek would be a better bet then?

'The Tube Store' says the following:

I'm thinking of trying the 5881, EL34 next to the standard 6L6... as the 5881/EL34 would give a tighter low end... which what I'm searching for.

Before Steven blew his 5881 his OTS was sounding wonderful. They have nicer highs then the regular 6L6GC.

I did get a chance to use my JJ's and winged c's again. I felt in my amp the JJ's sounded worst. Some frequencies seem to stand out a bit (For instande when I play a c on the b string). The sound isn't well balanced.
The Winged C's are well balanced and even. They sound better at 39 then a 34 mV. For my tatste they are very direct and uncompromising, they lack a bit of " sweetness". They Sovtek 5881 (new) are warmer sounding.

I'll keep you posted on the Tung Sol 5881's. I didn't realise they are for 400V max. I think the OTS runs on 450V. Some people here seem to get good results though.

No I haven't. Might be worth a try.

The datasheet for the 5881 say the max rating for the tube is 23 w.

That means with 440 plate voltage a amp is biased hot with 36mA.

I guess that when it comes to these components (tubes) it really depends where you're looking for... everyone has their own opinion about this.

I think I will try 6L6 and EL34 power tubes in my coming OTS and see which one suits me the best :).

OK first impression of the Tung Sol 5881's:
Biased and 35 and 33 mV
There is a very fanit hum even with the volume turned down all the way.
That's the only nagtive thing I have found so far. These tbes sound nice and warm and round. I could imagine a good choise with an overly bright amp. They tubes are not as direct (in your face) and tight as the SED Winged C's and sweeter sounding then my JJ's.

I'd say the Winged C's are a bit brighter and more open (more balanced in all frequencies perhaps), but I don't like them that much because they sound a bit to hard for me. The Tung Sols are sweeter and Jazzier. Nice OD as well.
Must confess I have tried them only for a bit and only in my house so not VERY loud.

I like them a lot. I thing (not sure cause I can't A/B them) they are slightly less dark then the Sovtek 5881's). My guess is that if you like 5881's these are great.

If you like a very direct tight tone you might wanna try the Winged C's. They are louder as well.

Just my, non expert, first impression
Great
Steven

ps. I wrote the supplier several e-mails and he said the voltage probably wouldn't be an big issue. (these are rated for 400V and people have told me my OPTS is about 460V)

Sorry Steven, which tubes were you exactly talking about in the beginning of your last post?  The Tads or the Tung-Sols?

Anyway, very interesting story you got there. Many thanks for that. Sounds like it's quite easy to bias the tubes yourself? Would love to try all kinds of tubes to find out the differences. We should make a list with the sound charactistics of each tube :).

Tung Sols.
Yeah Biasing is easy with the OTS. There's a Maual here somewhere.

Hey Tonequest. Lurker and newbie here. I think you will really like the TAD 6L6WGC-STR. I replaced my winged c's with them and as Steven said, the C's seemed a little in your face for me and were louder but the TAD's have a rounder warmth that I really like. My new build is the 50 watt OTS. It seemed to really smooth out after about 20 plus hours and a little tweaking with controls but the Tad's got me where I want to be. Now if I can just get the cabinet finished.

Dennis

Tonequest:
     I wouldn't say the TAD's are darker, they just seemed to slightly dull the sharpness and maybe fatter would be appropriate. A little more 3D.  Can still sound pretty aggressive but a little more refined. Hard to describe but I hope you get the idea. I need to learn how to post sound clips and buy recording equipment.

Dennis

I have them biased at 36 and 38. Slight mismatch. Plate voltage is 472. This is still relatively cold I believe. 56 and 60 % approximately.  I'm sure somebody here with more experience can help more.  I am learning but have a ways to go. Good luck and I hope you enjoy, Tonequest.

Dennis

IMO the TAD 6L6WGC's has less highs and lows than a 6L6GC which has a broader spectrum with lots of highs and lows. With a WGC you get the feeling of more mids but I think they are just more "narrow" sounding.
Andy Fuchs uses the TAD 6L6WGC in his ODS amps from a post some time ago.

Hi guys
I bought a "Platinum matched" set of Tung Sol 5881's
When I bias them, they are about 2 mV apart. Is that normal?

Greets
Steven

Just curious. What is your plate voltage, Tonequest?

Measure between pin 3 and pin 8 to get actual voltage I think. Can others verify?
Link to bias calculator and charts:   http://www.webervst.com/tubes1/calcbias.htm 

Tonequest,
   You just need a good multimeter and be very carful what you touch. Very lethal voltages inside of these amps due to the capacitors.  Here is a link that will explain step by step. Look under fixed bias.

http://www.diyguitarist.com/GuitarAmps/PT-Biasing.htm

I just replaced the SED Winged C EL34's in my OTS with TAD 6L6WGC-STR. Biased them around 39-40 mA.

First impressions: improvement! The 6L6's give a more compressed feel, less in-your-face. A bit darker and thicker as well. This is at a low volume level though. I really think EL34's need some proper (stage) volume to get the best out of it. At low levels it can sound a bit thin and bright. At these conditions I get a more pleasing sound with the 6L6's. Can't wait to turn it up more.

Winged C el34's tend to be a bit on the bright side anyway.  I know that their 6l6gc's also can also be pretty bright for a 6l6 type.  A slight adjustment to the hotter side of biasing can help in both instances. 

I've been busy on fleabay stocking up on VOS power tubes for my incoming 50w HRM head, a pair of GE 6l6gc's, a pair of what appear to be early Sylvania (Conn labeled) 6l6gc's, a slightly used pair of TAD 6l6wgc's, and a couple pairs of Siemens el34's.  Starting to Jones a bit... ;)       

Currently running Shuguang KT88's @ 64mA. Huge improvement over both the JJ 6L6's and Winged C, Shugaung EL34's

in terms of dynamic range ? warmer midrange or ?

huge midrange and bass with present highs. Overall pretty balanced, no harshness, full sounding.

I'll try to get a soundclip up asap.