Ceriatone Forum

Hi,

I posted a much, much longer post at the Stompbox forum. If you feel inclined to check that out.
http://forum.thestompbox.net/showthread.php?t=8335 (http://forum.thestompbox.net/showthread.php?t=8335)

In getting my studio up-and-running, especially the guitar/amp part. By far the hardest decisions have been how to get some nice effects that will work well with the OTS and Klein.

Part of it is a matter of expense - the best MFX box for the job is more expensive than the OTS w/ Klein.

What I want is something that will segregate the effects into those used before the pre-amp, and those used in the effects chain. I'm also not at all interested in MFX boxes that have models, but fortunately, some boxes don't have models, others have ways of bypassing them.

In looking at these units. The TC Electronic G-System stands out for versatility, and cost. The Boss GT10 seems to have the ability to run pre and post, through a 4 cable system, but I heard this, and can't actually see it in the manual.

If you were going to divide your signal chain like this, what, in your opinion, should go before the pre-amp, and what should go into the loop? I can't think of much I'd want before the pre-amp. For sure compressor, possibly EQ - if needed.

Almost all the boxes I've been looking at want the amp in their loop. I want them in (or before the OTS loop).

Now the G-System is way expensive, especially because I have to add another $300+ USD to get it sent to Thailand. Technically, I could buy a cheaper box, put it in the effects loop, and run a compressor as a single pedal into the Amp's input.

What do you guy's do? Buying individual stomp boxes - especially if you want the really good ones - is even more expensive than the G-system. Other units I've been looking at are the Digitech RP1000, the Boss GT10, and the TC Electronic Nova System, and G Major 2. Aside from the GT10 all these want your amp to be in
their loop.

Any suggestions? I'm all ears!

Thanks - Buzzer

My advice is to avoid the G system with the OTS- I tried one for about a month before I re-sold it! Basically it sucked the 'good' tone right out of the amp I'm afraid, nothing wrong with the G system- just it didn't work with the OTS whatever I tried- and it really didn't really work well in the amp loop, even the Kleinulator struggled to improve things.  Now, I use a few basic pedals pre the input- a Wah, a cloned 'original' Marshall Bluesbreaker pedal for some John Mayer like tones on the clean channel, a cloned Tychobrahe Octavia for my Hendrix moments  ;D, and an Electro-Harmonix Memory Man w/Hazarai in the OTS effex loop + the Kleinulator to balance dry / effects tones- and works very well- although not exactly studio quality- it has some very warm delays and a basic reverb + some daft reverse delays which I use sometimes to scare my drummer  ;D.  My advice is to check everything in your signal chain- if it sounds worse plugged in- then remove it!  The OTS is VERY picky with your signal chain, and you can lose all that great tone very easily if your not careful.

My philosophy has been everything has to be true bypass so I can get back to the natural amptone if I need to. Thats why when I built my rack mount Kleinulator I wanted to have a bypass switch, footswitcheable. Now you could argue that this should have been a dual bypass in that you might want to keep the Klein in the loop but take the effects out of the Klein loop, but I went for the simple option that took everything out of the loop, though it does leave me with about 3 foot of cable in the amp loop.

I use a TC G Sharp in the Klein loop and find it really quite good for the price, however its completely useless in respect of its stored presets. There is no way to find what the presets are, no way of naming them and no indication on the front panel unless you are prepared to do a lot of very slow knob fiddling or write them down!. So on balance only a good choice if you are prepared to use it effectively like a stomp box. Oh and the Flange and phaser effects are rubbish, chorus is passable.

I use a Rocktron Xpression. It has an internal mixer. This lets you mix the direct (analog) signal with the effect (digital). This leaves your precious OTS tone intact as much as possible.

I use a TC G Major in the loop.  This doesn't require a buffered loop.  (I have a Kleinulator, but I don't use it.)  And I use a Boss GT-8 in front of the amp.  This is working great for me.

I am using the TC Electronic G Sharp. It works great in the loop without the Klein. It has way more capabilities than I can use. I like the fact that it has delay and reverb together. I always use a little of each. The only thing I don't like is that I can't use delay with other effects. The rack is more convenient than pedals to me. I have attached a photo. I keep all the cables plugged into the effects  and store them in the rack case when transporting. When setting up I just pop off the case covers pull out the cables and connect to the amp and power. Takes me more time to get everything through the door than it does to set up my rig. 

I had the G Sharp as well. Very nice indeed and very cheap.
there's one thing I didn't like though. You can't programm the overall volume of each patch.
I use that quite a lot to switch from rhythm to lead sounds.

The advantage with the GSharp and other effects with volume knobs for input and output, is that you are able to make an adjustment on the fly and don't have to dwelve into menu structures in order to make a simple adjustment IMHO

I agree. The Rocktron has this as well ;-)

Thanks Mitch!

I've heard this "G System Sucks Tone" several times. If you search that on google, it appears many times. There is not doubt that this is something people are experiencing. However, there are many people out there that are saying, basically, that it's a tough box to set up right. I believe you're supposed to use balanced cables, and everything has to be just so. I've heard stories from people who took months to get it right, but finally succeeded. And the opposite is also true as in one story from a player that discovered after using it for a long time that his amp came alive when he took the G-System out. The way he put it, I don't think he spent a lot of time troubleshooting after discovering the difference, but that might have changed things. Possibly not.

Similar things are said at the Jem website (an Ibanez forum), and it sounds like this box needs a lot of troubleshooting if it's not working right.

This may make it unavailable for me. As I live in this unspeakably wonderful country - Thailand - unspeakable because if I say anything bad about the place they might kill me or throw me in jail, that is. Well, I got a guitar midi converter from West LA music. I paid a lot for shipping (bundled with other items, and about $100 (20%) import taxes. I didn't even have to open the box. It rattled. For grins, I checked it out, but nothing. I had the choice of paying $100 in customs fees and driving 4 times to a govt. office about a half an hour away, and getting photos and documents, and yada, yada, yada. All so they wouldn't charge me customs taxes the second time! Or paying $100 customs taxes (again) and having it sent again.

I don't want to pay about $250 extra for import duties + shipping, just to find out the thing doesn't work. The thing's expensive to begin with.

I live far from the jewel of the orient - Bangkok - where I can test listen to the RP1000, and GT10, but I don't want to take my amp, speaker, and guitar there to do it. I can't get the thing from Guitar Center on 30 day approval here. So the last thing you said- about checking everything in my signal chain - isn't an option. Now that Bush is out, I'm planning on leaving this paradise to go back to where I've spent most of my life - Hawaii - but even there, unless you live on Oahu (which I won't) The music shops are not full of gear options.

One bottom line for me is an Editor program that works on the Mac. The Rocktron sounded like a good box until I found out no editor exists. I haven't heard much good or bad about editor software for the GT10 or RP1000. Apparently it works well for the G-System, but might not be available yet for other devices in the TC Electronic G-String series.

Bottom line also is that none of these boxes do all I want them to do, with the possible exception of the G-System, but I'd hate to purchase a thoroughbred and find out it's just a dog.

Thanques,

Buzzer

So just run it in paralel via the Klein - in stead of in series mod. And it will not possible suck any tone at all. As simple as that  :)

From bluesfendermanblues:
I know already this is going to be a long post - hang in there!

Strangely, the exact opposite is the advice from a guy that has researched the G-system extensively. He posts quite a bit on the S-System forum sub-forum at tc electronic forum. He admits the G-system is not a plug-and-play device. Far from it. He sent me a 30+ page PDF that he wrote to explain the G-system better than the manual. I'm only about half way through reading it, but here's a quote that he includes from Mesa about using their parallel effects loop.
The writer, Laird, goes on to add:

Now, both my OTS and Klein are pretty much brand-spankin' new. The last thing I want to do is ditch the Klein, which cost me good money, but, truly, the last thing I wish to ditch is tone. As I'm only half way through his PDF, I can't comment too much, but, basically, I believe what he's saying is that using the serial type connection is OK, or some parallels are OK but have to be 100% wet (supposedly you'd adjust this down at the EFX unit). On the other hand, there seems to be a problem of cross-bleed, that can make the G-system sound bad if not corrected.
(I'll read the rest of the article and try to report a summation of the problem tomorrow) But, so far, it appears that the author is saying that in a parallel loop you've got 2 signals wet and dry, and the wet comes through after a minuscule delay. This minuscule delay is undetectable to our ears, but it comes up with all kinds of phasing, and artifact problems. I'll try to clarify tomorrow. Here's your chance to tell me I'm full of it!

Laird asked me about the OTS configuration, I guess he's spent so much time troubleshooting the G-System that he knows questions to ask that I couldn't even imagine.I sent these questions to Nik, but he is (uncharacteristically) slow to reply. Still less than a day. Sorry for my own personal rush to resolve this, my friends have one ready to send me, and I hate to delay them while I figure this thing out.

Anyhow - Laird's questions:


Can any of you answer these questions? I'd certainly appreciate it. If anyone wants a copy of that PDF, please request it, and I'll try to get permission from the author. I guess I'm in OTS OverTime!

Thanks,

Buzzer

Buzzer, you are way too analytical and intellectual about this   ;) Try it both way (serial and parallel) and use what sounds best. I don't care what TC or Mesa writes in their manuals. I use my ears. So should you.

Alternatively do as Larry Carlton and others...
- take a signal from 'send' on your OTS,
- run the signal to your effects
- and from the effects out, you run it to another amp/speaker setup. (instead of back to the OTS),

That way you don't have to worry about whether to use serial or paralel.

In reallity a small and cheap transistor comboamp could be used for this application, since only 10% of the total signal is effects anyway.  :o

Don't worry so much, play your instrument and forget the gear  8)

I agree with 'just play whole-heartedly - I however, did go way too far down the 'everything but the kitchen sink route' plugged into my OTS- then I removed everything and there was the tone I wanted all along! Seriously, (going back to the G- System) it's rather cool and incredibly well made & the Mac based patch editor is a breeze (I assume the PC version is as good). BUT, it's fine until you want to  use the delays/modulations POST the OTS pre-amp- then there was an awful issue with mismatched levels, tone sucking, etc...etc... I have years of experience with technical stuff like this and indeed am employed as a music technology professor at my local College- but nothing redeemed the awful tone sucking the G system did when in the loop, and in the end I decided really didn't need hundreds of patches in the kind of music I play.  Having a few basic analogue effects in the front end,  and a basic delay/echo in the OTS loop w/kleinulator gives me my 'tone for days' IMHO - It's a tough one to answer this specifically, especially as you're not in a good situation to audition much gear- my honest advice though is to 'keep it simple' & wish you the best of luck in your tone adventures!

I use the TC Electronic G-Force and a Klein....... Sounds GOOOOOOOOOOOOD ! :)

Hi again,

I agree with what has been said about just use your ears and play and don't worry about the technical details.

Checking out numerous devices is darn near impossible. 1. I live a long way from Bangkok. 2. The MFX units take a great deal of time to even get around, let alone get the sound you want. This is a bit difficult in a guitar store, given ambient noise and time constraints.3. Even if it was possible, the questions I have would require my lugging at least my head and a guitar around (forget the cab).

I think the G-System is the most flexible system out there, plus, with the best reverbs, and delays - effects I'll actually use. But I have to know if there is an inherent flaw in the way it will work with the OTS. Mitch seemed to think so, and his understanding of electronics is overwhelmingly greater than my own.

I was thinking about sending a PM to Klein, because he'd have to know this stuff. The guy I mentioned before, Laird, has been fooling around with the G-System for years, and has a grasp on the electronic issues that confront the user of the thing. That's why 1. I asked the following questions regarding the specs on the loop. Heck, at this point, I don't know if it's a serial loop, or a parallel loop. I don't know what effect the Klein has on this either. So, if anyone knows, please inform me.

So, I hate to ask this question again, but if someone knows the answer, or where I can dig it up online, please let me know. If you can provide the following information about the OTS, it would be most useful:

1) Loop topology (parallel, serial, switchable?)
2) Loop Send Nominal Output Impedance (in ohms...)
3) Loop Send level (+4db?, -10db?, switchable?)
4) Loop Return input impedance (in ohms or k-ohms, or M-ohms)
5) Presence of a gain makeup stage at the loop return.
6) Nominal Input impedance of the main input

Thanks!

Buzzer

OK I'll have ago at answering some these , but you'll likely have to ask Nik or Mike(?) Klein.

1)  Serial, not switcheable unless you make your own. Passive ie no gain make-up what you lose is lost hence the need for the Klein or similar.
2) Don't know, sorry
3) I think the level depends somewhat on your input volume and ratio levels
4) Don't know, sorry
5) None this is a passive loop
6) Don't know, sorry

Personally I believe this amp is designed to be simple, after all it is 3 preamp valves and 2/4 poweramp valves. Compare this with my Fender Twin Amp which if my memory serves me well was 8+4. I had problems when I used my G# in the loop of the OTS on its own, it sucked tone badly. I then used a BBe Crossover to boost the signal prior to the G# and that improved it but I needed to be able to A/B and thats why I went with the Klein with footswitcheable hard bypass. It works well now. I strongly suggest you use a system that you can take out of circuit easily so you can be sure in your own mind its not messing with your tone. And it must be a true bypass, most of the TC stuff is not a true bypass as far as I know.

I think we can be sure that the combination of a Klein and any of the TC rack mount gear works well with the OTS, so why not go for this and get a really good Midi floor switch. There is no body of testing/opinion for other systems and if it was me and I was going your route I'd go for a Gigrig http://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/FAQ_Amp_FX_Loop_Setup.html (http://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/FAQ_Amp_FX_Loop_Setup.html) system. You could talk to them on the phone and I'm sure you'd get better service than from a big Corp like TC. I do believe you need to talk to someone who has actually tried a G-System in a PASSIVE loop and whose opinion on tone you can trust before shelling out for one.

Hi,

Thanks, y'all for your input. I've made available the PDF I received from Laird, who has a lot of familiarity with the G-System, and a lot more expertise in electronics than I.

He described his "White Paper" as a work in progress, and is open to corrections/advice, etc. Though it discusses how to get the G-System configured, it has a lot to say about several things. I found his discussion of loops to be informative, in fact, rather eye opening.

He said I could make it available. I guess I should say that I found it by looking at the TC Electronic forum, sub-forum G-System.

One person commenting on the G-System manual said, "If you do decide on a G, throw away the manual and read all of Laird's golden info - he really deserves to get free TC products for life!!"

I sent a PM to Mitch, and others asking them to read this white paper. The G-System still seems like my best option, the next would be a Boss GT10, or something I'd solely run in the fx loop, and maybe a compressor pedal and volume pedal into the OTS. I have to make an order from W. LA Music this week that I've delayed too long already. The only variable is whether the G-System is part of the order or not.

Also, if there are any other user's of the G-System with the OTS what do you like and dislike about the combination?

Anyway, take a look at the PDF, and post any comments you have.

Thanks again,

Buzzer

Having started to read that document I began to think, if its that complex its not the right thing to couple with an OTS. The OTS is a simple amp (albeit with a lot of complex wiring for the switching options), very well done. I'd advise you keep it that way. Use analog true bypass wherever possible and if you absolutely have to go Digital for your fx make sure you can hard bypass them, because frankly otherwise you will have wasted your money on the OTS.

Hi again!

I don't know if y'all realize how much time I put into this issue. I need some effects to do some recording, and I have an OTS without effects, and a POD with too many.

What I want the point of this post to center around is the 4 Cable Method (4CM) that is employed by the G-System and the Boss GT-10.

It seems there are only two posters that have had any experience with the OTS + Kleinulator and this setup, Mitch with the TC Electronic G-System, and poticasoti with a GT-10. Both had bad experiences. I don't know if Scott (poticasoti) was able to make his work eventually.

The reason I get into this again, is I just realized it will take me upwards of $1,600 to have a G-System delivered to Thailand, and I can buy a GT-10 in Bangkok for about $510 total. The TC has some features I really like, but I can get by with the GT-10,

So I decided to buy the GT-10 next week in Bangkok.But doing a search on it in the Overtone forum, no one has any good things to say about it. Bad sounding, or sucks tone. What's wrong with this picture? Also, because of the way the search engine works, you can't search the numeral 4. So there may be more people who have used the 4CM 4 Cable Method, but I can't search it. I only find responses from Mitch and Scotty.

Now I got a Kleinulator, with the OTS because it seemed like a good thing. But there are some effects in the chain that should go before the pre-amp and others in the loop. If I can't get this downfall of the 4 cable method figured out soon, the only thing I can think to do is buy at least a compressor for use up-front, and put something like a G-Major 2 in the effects loop. Still can't do everything I want with that setup, but it will probably get me by.

Unless any of you have any answers. Why would the 4 cable method behave badly with a OTS + Klein? If any of you could read the PDF (downloadable from my post above) or answer the 6 technical questions I posted earlier, it might help considerably. The PDF is theoretically dealing with configuring the G-System, but it goes much further than that, and I highly recommend reading it.

I asked those 6 questions to Nik over a week ago, and am surprised at his lack of response. He's far and away one of the most responsive emailers I've encountered in 13 years of emailing. I also sent a PM to Mike Klein, but haven't received an answer yet.

At any rate, I have spent probably upwards of 80 hours on this. It took me about 8 minutes to decide to buy the OTS. I'm suffering from MFX burn-out syndrome!

Thanks again,

Buzzer