Ceriatone Forum

Ceriatone => Overtone => Topic started by: Blues Junkie on May 11, 2011, 11:45:26 PM



Title: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: Blues Junkie on May 11, 2011, 11:45:26 PM
I was wondering how many First time builders picked the OTS for there first time build? How did it go? Did it go well?Or was it a dissaster?

I've been wanting to build an amp for a very long time and while I understand a small simple amp would be a good first choice... I have no interest in any amp but a D-Style.

I have done a ton of research on amps and D-Style amps. I have been a mechanic for 25 years, I know how to solder, read wiring diagrahms and I understand layouts.

So am I crazy for wanting to tackle a Ceriatone Bluesmaster 100 or #183 ?

Any advice would be great... Someone either talk me down from this ledge or give me a good push. ;D


Thanks.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 12, 2011, 01:10:27 AM
I built one for my first amp. I think if you're mature and able to be patient and understand it's not a toy and can be potentionally dangerous it's possible. PLUS, have a fair amount of electronics/technical experience is one form or another. I spent more then a few years in very large R&D test lab for a major corp. While I spent most the time relegated to specific tasks, I got to see the whole design process of an electronic commercial product from begining to end. This has made me rather brave about jumping into the deep end.

I should add that the experience from others at forums like this were critcal in my success.

I had been building guitar effects for a few years before building the amp too.

Also, even though there are no schematics available for these amps, do you have any experience in reading schematics?

Also, I understand wanting to build an amp that you will really want to play. In fact I was out to build my dream amp.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: sonicmojo on May 12, 2011, 01:25:43 AM
Go for it.  The BM50 was my first tube amp.  I had built quite a few pedals and a mic preamp before on PCBs.  In some ways a point to point amp kit is easier to solder but takes longer because of all the wires.

A couple of things helped me a lot:

Someone advised making a good mechanical connection to every solder joint.  Take the time to loop and crimp the wire around the connection, especially the pots and solder lugs.

Dab a little paint on all the chassis nuts to prevent loosening over time.

The pictures are very useful.  I always had them up on the computer while working.  Pay close attention to the dress of the wiring, parallel to each other, twisted nicely, etc.  I think it really helped my amp not to have any noise issues.

Print the layout at Kinkos on big paper.  Mark the connections on the paper as you complete them.

Scour the posts on this forum first to pick up other tips.

Email Nik with any questions.  He was always responsive to me.

I winged it on my first power up but there is a documented method to introduce a light bulb to the circuit in case you have a short somewhere.  I plan to use that on all my future builds.

Since this is addictive, be sure to order your next kit before you finish your first so in between time is minimal..... ;)







Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: sduck on May 12, 2011, 03:59:59 AM
My Bluesmaster 50w was the first amp I've built. See my build thread - http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1952.0 (http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1952.0). I've built tons of electronic projects before this, mainly synthesizer modules, so lots of the project was the usual stuff, but there was also lots of learning along the way.

And my amp worked perfectly on first power up, and has continued doing so!


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: dannysgrandpa on May 12, 2011, 04:42:39 AM
I had only done a cap and tube job on an old amp I found at a thrift store and it worked! As a guitarist, I've always made my own cables and wired in my new pickups, so using a soldering iron was easy. But, I was advised against such a complex amp for my first build. So, I went for it! I took it very slowly and exercised great patience. Followed the layout and photos as well as Niks emails and tips from the great people on this forum and I've been playing with this amazing amp for almost three years now. Go for it and take the tips from here... you'll be glad you did.
Best of luck!


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: T Wilcox on May 12, 2011, 01:58:18 PM
OTS FM50 was my firstborn
Before that I had built a BYOC effects pedal.
The amp was easier for me because there is room to work.
I have been working on electrical ( low voltage and high voltage ) for past 15 yrs.
But unless you are redesigning the amp you wont be calculating formulas or anything. I pretty much did the paint by numbers thing trying to learn as much as possible along the way.
Worked on first power up, I was confident it would because I triple check every connection.

It is addicting so beware. Just finished my second build and I am almost sad about it because it went so fast! 3 weekdays after working 10 hr days at my day job.
I guess I'll just have to order another kit :(

It adds a couple steps but one suggestion I got is to pre tin all stranded wiring before making the connection. It looks a lot cleaner and its easier to work with because it wont fray when you bend it around connection.

I am colorblind so I do not follow color coding, I noticed that some wire colors on layout do not match the actual wiring that boards come with so make sure you confirm each connection from point to point.

Once you get the kit and have started on it, if you have any questions or problems ask here and you will get help. If possible take pics and post them as well.

Good Luck

Todd





Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: Blues Junkie on May 12, 2011, 03:16:37 PM
Hey Guys,

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!! for al the encouraging words.

I'm going to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I just have to decide which model to go with. I'm leaning towards a 100 Watter "183" or "FM" any recommendations on other models would be great.

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: T Wilcox on May 12, 2011, 04:10:49 PM
Unless there is someone here I do not know of who has all the models and can give you detailed comparison, you will have to decide on the model yourself!
I have not heard of one person regretting getting any specific model.
Listen to the soundclips and decide which flavor suits you best.

I liked every soundclip I heard so I just kinda picked one ( OTS FM50 ) and have no regrets.

Another thing you can do to get suggestions is state which Artist you would like your amp to sound like.
One guy said he wanted to get John Mayers tone to Nik.
He ended up getting an OTS with JM mod.
Food for thought

Todd


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 12, 2011, 07:07:56 PM
HRM.....I'm probably prejudice because it's the one I built. But I can't imagine a more versatile/tweakable D-style build. I would like to see what an EL34 based OTS would be like. Like the 183 or HRM mkII.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: Nairbr on May 13, 2011, 01:09:09 AM
My first build was my Stray Cat, a OTS is a bit harder but not impossible for 1st timer.

Just follow the few golden rules:
Triple check your wiring
Don't rush your build
Ask if your not sure
And be very careful about touching anything when you power up and even after it has had power through it, some caps hold a deadly voltage for days. Always only put 1 hand in the amp and the other in your pocket so you dont accidently ground yourself.

There is plenty of help from experienced builders available here.

REMEMBER the only dumb question is the one not asked.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: bluesfendermanblues on May 13, 2011, 06:36:54 AM
HRM.....I'm probably prejudice because it's the one I built. But I can't imagine a more versatile/tweakable D-style build. I would like to see what an EL34 based OTS would be like. Like the 183 or HRM mkII.

Hi Soundperf,

Since you already got a HRM amp, you really need a NON-HRM like the #183, as you mention, or a #102 (Ceriatone FM50). The latter nails the Robben Ford tones perfectly.

(BTW, you much nicer at this forum, than on Amgarage, where you and I seem to debate a lot about midcaps and slope resistors  ;) )


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 13, 2011, 05:38:01 PM
HRM.....I'm probably prejudice because it's the one I built. But I can't imagine a more versatile/tweakable D-style build. I would like to see what an EL34 based OTS would be like. Like the 183 or HRM mkII.

Hi Soundperf,

Since you already got a HRM amp, you really need a NON-HRM like the #183, as you mention, or a #102 (Ceriatone FM50). The latter nails the Robben Ford tones perfectly.

(BTW, you much nicer at this forum, than on Amgarage, where you and I seem to debate a lot about midcaps and slope resistors  ;) )
Hello Bluesfendermanblues, I try to be nice everywhere I go. ;) You're a nice guy here and there too. I guess that's what first threw me a bit. Being honest, I was starting to build a bit of an attitude with some of the ways answers were given over there and you got the brunt of that attitude. A bad attitude is not a good way to go about things. I use to work with a bunch of EE's with huge egos that use to drive me crazy and I guess it sparked some old crap in me. Let me say, I really respect and admire your restraint with staying out of it after the initial interaction. So sorry for the attitude.

I can read, but I hate doing it. I get destracted easily and find it very boring. I'm much better with audible and visual learning. All my guitar ability is mostly from watching others. I can see and hear someone play a complex phrase and get it immediately, where seeing it written out will take me forever.

Thanks for the advice on a non-hrm. I very happy now with the HRM, but if I would've realized at the time just what exactly the #183 was, I probably would have gone with that.  I use to frequent the TGP a lot more about 4 or 5 years ago. I was there at TPG through PRS forums. This must have been about the time that Tag got the #183. At that time I had no idea what it was, but was super impressed with tone. I knew of the Dumble mistique, but didn't realize that was what I was listening to. What I remember more was all the crazy banter back and forth between Tag and others. :o I never really participated in the discussions and stopped posting there for the most part about that time. It wasn't until figuring it all out recently through the TheAmpGarage, that it all came together.

Hopefully amp building becomes something I do a lot more of and we can have a great relationship. Thanks again.  :)

Now back to the regular scheduled programming.........


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: sonicmojo on May 13, 2011, 11:35:10 PM
HRM.....I'm probably prejudice because it's the one I built. But I can't imagine a more versatile/tweakable D-style build. I would like to see what an EL34 based OTS would be like. Like the 183 or HRM mkII.

Yes, I too have the EL34 itch and interest in the 183 circuit.  My 183 boards just arrived today!  How it took only 2 days to get from Malaysia to Tampa, FL, via China, Japan, Anchorage, Kentucky, etc.....I have no idea, but it makes for a happy weekend.  Hopefully in a little while I'll have a 183 to join my BM.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 13, 2011, 11:45:32 PM
HRM.....I'm probably prejudice because it's the one I built. But I can't imagine a more versatile/tweakable D-style build. I would like to see what an EL34 based OTS would be like. Like the 183 or HRM mkII.

Yes, I too have the EL34 itch and interest in the 183 circuit.  My 183 boards just arrived today!  How it took only 2 days to get from Malaysia to Tampa, FL, via China, Japan, Anchorage, Kentucky, etc.....I have no idea, but it makes for a happy weekend.  Hopefully in a little while I'll have a 183 to join my BM.
You say "boards", does that mean you got the whole kit or just the main boards? Either way that's cool. Good weekend for sure..... 8)

It took a little longer than two days, but I was blown away at how quick my kit got to me from Malaysia.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: sonicmojo on May 14, 2011, 04:25:06 AM
Yeah I went with just the boards this time.  I picked up a Dumble style chassis locally that Watts Tube Audio (aka Turretboards.com) had laying around.  I'm going custom faceplate on it and a few other mods.  The one chassis part that I am having trouble sourcing is the bias test poles if anyone knows a supplier or what they are really called.  By they way, Nik includes the off board caps/resisitors, wires, and a few other mounting items in the board only package so you actually get more than just the boards themselves.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: bluesfendermanblues on May 14, 2011, 10:15:38 AM
Thanks for the advice on a non-hrm. I very happy now with the HRM, but if I would've realized at the time just what exactly the #183 was, I probably would have gone with that.  I use to frequent the TGP a lot more about 4 or 5 years ago. I was there at TPG through PRS forums. This must have been about the time that Tag got the #183. At that time I had no idea what it was, but was super impressed with tone. I knew of the Dumble mystique, but didn't realize that was what I was listening to. What I remember more was all the crazy banter back and forth between Tag and others. :o I never really participated in the discussions and stopped posting there for the most part about that time. It wasn't until figuring it all out recently through the TheAmpGarage, that it all came together.

Hopefully amp building becomes something I do a lot more of and we can have a great relationship. Thanks again.  :)

Now back to the regular scheduled programming.........

I have recently build a #183, sourcing the parts myself, and using a set of tranformers from an old 72', EL34 equipped Laney Supergroup, which was a Marshall Plexi knockoff, but with much better transformers from Partridge in England.

The amp is not that different from a standard Non Hrm High plate or even the #102 (=Ceriatone FM). However, Dogears aka Scott Lerner (super forumite at ampgarage) also knows TAG and has played his amp a number of times, claims that the V1 and V2 preamp tubes, GE 12AX7 short plate, were an essential part of the original #183 amps tone. So I'm gonna chase some of those in order to get the TAG sound.

TAG is a humbucker player (like yourself? you mention, that you 'came' from the PRSforum), I mainly play strats therefore, I have found that I need a 100k slope resistor and a 47n mid cap. - like on the TWOROCK OPAL, as discussed on the AMPG forum.

If you want to convert your own HRM to #183, its actually not that hard, you only need to change four caps - or something like that. You could try that and see if the #183 is 'better' than your present amp. If you decide that you need both a HRM and a #183 you can easily convert the HRM amp back to its present setup.

IMO, the OD on the #183 is quite bright so you might want to up the snubber cap on V2B from 25p to appx. 270p +/- 50p.

One tip regarding all the Dumble amps is to use a dumblelator (=C-lator) in order to get a more 3D sounding tone out the amps.

Another finding is that the HRM (+Bluesmaster) amps are more all reound amps, whereas the NON HRM (Standard, #102, #124 and #183) are more soloist amps.

This off course is just my experience - your mileage may very, as they say 'over there' :-)


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 14, 2011, 05:59:09 PM
The one chassis part that I am having trouble sourcing is the bias test poles if anyone knows a supplier or what they are really called.
Will these do? I don't think they're exactly like the ones Nik has, but should work. Scroll to the bottome of the page.
https://taweber.powweb.com/store/plugord.htm (https://taweber.powweb.com/store/plugord.htm)


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 14, 2011, 06:40:32 PM
I have recently build a #183, sourcing the parts myself, and using a set of tranformers from an old 72', EL34 equipped Laney Supergroup, which was a Marshall Plexi knockoff, but with much better transformers from Partridge in England.

The amp is not that different from a standard Non Hrm High plate or even the #102 (=Ceriatone FM). However, Dogears aka Scott Lerner (super forumite at ampgarage) also knows TAG and has played his amp a number of times, claims that the V1 and V2 preamp tubes, GE 12AX7 short plate, were an essential part of the original #183 amps tone. So I'm gonna chase some of those in order to get the TAG sound.

TAG is a humbucker player (like yourself? you mention, that you 'came' from the PRSforum), I mainly play strats therefore, I have found that I need a 100k slope resistor and a 47n mid cap. - like on the TWOROCK OPAL, as discussed on the AMPG forum.

If you want to convert your own HRM to #183, its actually not that hard, you only need to change four caps - or something like that. You could try that and see if the #183 is 'better' than your present amp. If you decide that you need both a HRM and a #183 you can easily convert the HRM amp back to its present setup.

IMO, the OD on the #183 is quite bright so you might want to up the snubber cap on V2B from 25p to appx. 270p +/- 50p.

One tip regarding all the Dumble amps is to use a dumblelator (=C-lator) in order to get a more 3D sounding tone out the amps.

Another finding is that the HRM (+Bluesmaster) amps are more all reound amps, whereas the NON HRM (Standard, #102, #124 and #183) are more soloist amps.

This off course is just my experience - your mileage may very, as they say 'over there' :-)
Man, thanks for all the great information. Even though I'm a PRS guy my "go to" guitar for the last 2 years is this PRS Swamp Ash 513 w/maple neck. I use the single coils probably 60% of the time. So good SC tone is important to me. I also owned a 92' Jeff Beck Sig Strat that I loved and then like a fool, sold. You're right though I use to play nothing but humbuckers for the first 15 years of playing.

Hmm, interesting about converting my amp to a 183...I would have to give that some thought. As far as C/D-lator, I'm saving up the money to build one, but a great forumite, Todd Wilcox, loaned me his Klein-u-lator for a little while to try it out. I know it's not like the C-lator, but it has given me a good taste of what it's all about. I didn't think it was possible to get even better sound than before.

You're right Scott Lerner is incredible. I was playing last night to some backing tracks and getting some great tones and was feeling rather proud of myself. Then I happened to pull of this thread, and got a dose of reality. Man he's good. And the bloom he's getting on this clip is outrageous.
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12182&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=ac650f464ab1fddb2e63609c4a946f2a (http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12182&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=ac650f464ab1fddb2e63609c4a946f2a)

That's one thing I can't quite get my amp to do. That's bloom easily anywhere on the neck. It's getting better, but in it's present setup and tube configuration, I don't see it ever being like that clip. But it does have it's own unique character. I do want to try some different tubes in the PI.

I can see your point on HRM's being an all round amp. Mainly, due to the fact that they sound great with big over driven chords. Big Marshall sounding at times. But it solos nice too.

Thanks again for the tips. I may have to hit you up for some advice down the road if I decide to dig into my amp.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: boldaslove6789 on May 14, 2011, 08:15:01 PM
The Dumbleator and Suhr MiniMix II Scott uses really adds the compression and Bloom. Non-HRm's do this very easily. HRm's not so much, you have to really work for the harmonic bloom. A great neck through or set neck guitar also adds to this, as well as having vintage PAF based pups. I believe he uses Wolftone pups in his Baker B3.   

 My Quinn 183 with a D-lator just blooms like a mofo cause of Scott's recommendations of NOS Ge short plates pre-amp tubes, high pF RG-400 cables in the loop, and Dumbleator etc. All these details just add to it and make the amp more versatile, more responsive, and just outright fun to play.

BTW the Klein is also very transparent compared to a good built Dumbleator.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 15, 2011, 03:22:51 AM
If you want to convert your own HRM to #183, its actually not that hard, you only need to change four caps - or something like that. You could try that and see if the #183 is 'better' than your present amp. If you decide that you need both a HRM and a #183 you can easily convert the HRM amp back to its present setup.
Since you mentioned this, I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I don't want to hijack this thead (too late I guess :-[ ) but I take it you mean just changing some caps in the preamp. Some of the main differenes I see are the two caps coming from the power tube grids. Also my ceriatone HRM doesn't use any snubbers on V2. Another main difference I see is the cap circled in red. Also I believe the value on the LNFB of V1 is a bit different. I used a Ceriatone 183 layout here with circles around the caps I see that are different in the preamp section. Would it really be this easy to get closer to a #183?

I often wondered why there were no snubbers on V2 on the HRM and what difference they would make. From what I can tell all other D-type designs utilize them.

Is there a thread you know of that discusses this in more detail? Thanks


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: bluesfendermanblues on May 15, 2011, 08:02:07 AM
Since you mentioned this, I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I don't want to hijack this thead (too late I guess :-[ ) but I take it you mean just changing some caps in the preamp. Some of the main differenes I see are the two caps coming from the power tube grids. Also my ceriatone HRM doesn't use any snubbers on V2. Another main difference I see is the cap circled in red. Also I believe the value on the LNFB of V1 is a bit different. I used a Ceriatone 183 layout here with circles around the caps I see that are different in the preamp section. Would it really be this easy to get closer to a #183?

OK, If you want to hear the difference between your current HRM setup and the #183, all you have to do is the following (reference being amde to attached layout:)

Quick and dirty (point 1-3)
1. Unsolder the two wired from the HRM-board
2. Remove the 0.002 cap and replace with a 0.015 (15nF) instead
3. Bridge the 470k + 47p cap witha piece of wire - and set the trimmer to 20k (middle pin-to- ground)

Minor importance:
4: Put in 25p snubbers - but ou wont really hear any difference in sound (you need appx. min. 220p in order to hear any difference)
5: change caps to 22n - reduces the low end a tiny bit in order to compensate for the 15n in the OD.

And off course switch off the LNFB on V1b

If you decide that the #183 is 'better' for your plaing and taste, you might want to change the
6. OD master to a 250k pot and rewire the OD relay
7. the 47p on the master is needed if you use a Dumbleator - in order to compensate for the cables to/from the cumbleator. - If you Dont' use a D-lator, yet, unsoler one of the 47p legs.

Good luck (I wont mention lethal voltages - or you'll bite my head off  8) - again) - have fun and looking forward to hearing you opinion about the #183 - ups, almost forgot...put in some NOS GE 12X7 JAN if you can get some...if not go with JJ ECC83S in V1 and V2. I get fine results in my Dumble clone amps with the latter.


Title: Re: OTS & First time Builders
Post by: SoundPerf on May 15, 2011, 08:45:28 PM
Since you mentioned this, I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I don't want to hijack this thead (too late I guess :-[ ) but I take it you mean just changing some caps in the preamp. Some of the main differenes I see are the two caps coming from the power tube grids. Also my ceriatone HRM doesn't use any snubbers on V2. Another main difference I see is the cap circled in red. Also I believe the value on the LNFB of V1 is a bit different. I used a Ceriatone 183 layout here with circles around the caps I see that are different in the preamp section. Would it really be this easy to get closer to a #183?

OK, If you want to hear the difference between your current HRM setup and the #183, all you have to do is the following (reference being amde to attached layout:)

Quick and dirty (point 1-3)
1. Unsolder the two wired from the HRM-board
2. Remove the 0.002 cap and replace with a 0.015 (15nF) instead
3. Bridge the 470k + 47p cap witha piece of wire - and set the trimmer to 20k (middle pin-to- ground)

Minor importance:
4: Put in 25p snubbers - but ou wont really hear any difference in sound (you need appx. min. 220p in order to hear any difference)
5: change caps to 22n - reduces the low end a tiny bit in order to compensate for the 15n in the OD.

And off course switch off the LNFB on V1b

If you decide that the #183 is 'better' for your plaing and taste, you might want to change the
6. OD master to a 250k pot and rewire the OD relay
7. the 47p on the master is needed if you use a Dumbleator - in order to compensate for the cables to/from the cumbleator. - If you Dont' use a D-lator, yet, unsoler one of the 47p legs.

Good luck (I wont mention lethal voltages - or you'll bite my head off  8) - again) - have fun and looking forward to hearing you opinion about the #183 - ups, almost forgot...put in some NOS GE 12X7 JAN if you can get some...if not go with JJ ECC83S in V1 and V2. I get fine results in my Dumble clone amps with the latter.
Whoa! THANKS for that! That's great. I need to figure a way to convince my wife to let me order the parts for a D-lator and I'll just put these parts in with it. She actually said she tought is sounded better with the Klein, so I was just telling her at dinner it will be even better with a D-lator. ;) Although, she really has no idea what I'm talking about. :D

I actually was looking on Doug's Tubes at NOS. Right now I have Tung Sol RI all preamps with a balanced one in V3. & TAD 6L6 WGC STR's. Looks like the JAN GE's are hard to come by.

I don't know how long until I get to it, but I'll let you know for sure what I think. Oh, and I'll watch those lethal voltages. :o ;)
Thanks again.