Ceriatone Forum

I have a new OTS 50 watt. I'm new to D style amps. At my band practice, the clean channel is not very loud. If I have the master at 12 oclock and the clean vol. at 12:00, or even both at 3 oclock you can barely hear the amp in the band. It's on the rock setting. On the jazz setting is the most anemic thin sound. We play blues and R&B and I never have any of my other Fender amps past 3 or 4, so we're not a loud band. The only way the amp acts normal is if the master is turned all the way up, and the clean vol. at 3 or more. I know that's how master volume amps work, but is this normal for this amp? I read somewhere this just adds distortion to the clean channel. I'm using SED wing C's at 35mv and tungsol reissue preamp tubes. All the tubes are lit up and work fine in other amps. I've looked up pics of other D style amps on stages and most look like the pre and master are between 11:00 and 1 oclock. Am I doing something wrong? Is the amp working right? I haven't even tried to dial in the overdrive channel, but I have the OD trimmer at 10 oclock and the phase inverter trimmer at noon, so I think the amp is set up right.

I'm also the owner of a OTS50 and my reference is also Fender (blackface/silverface and 59' RI bassman) amps without master volume.

The D-style amps is another beast, than your regular Fender amps.

I mostly play Strat and Tele with Single coil pickups.

I tend to have the input volume on 2-3 o'clock and the master on 12 o'clock when gigging - which is 'full' volume for a clean setting.
 
My drive pot is at 12 o'clock and lead drive master is at 2-3 oclock.

Trimmer is set at 9 o'clock, which gives med 'the' D-style sound... I use pedals if I want more heavy distortion/overdrive.

Conclusion: I dont think your amp is wrong, its just different form playin a Fender.

A number of things come to mind. I find that at home 12 o'clock on both input volume and master volume is very loud, but get in a closed room with a loud drummer and its barely enough. If you've got another loud guitarist aswell its no wonder you're up to 3 o'clock. But this would be too loud for most small venues I'd venture.

Also what speakers are you using. You will get a huge volume increase using 100dB sensitivity speakers over 94-96 dB speakers. Is your speaker cable good? check the connectors and use 2.5mm sq conductors.

I bet you're standing by your rig right? and in a small room you tend to stand closer than normal. In a closed room all you can hear is the rest of the band. Swap places with the guy across the other side so you're hearing what he's hearing. At our last band rehearsal I could hardly hear myself but everyone else said I was too loud, I was stood close to my rig so all my sound was around my thighs!

Never had any problems with volume on OTS. With master on 12' o clock it's incredibly loud in a band.
I use 2x12 cab with celestion g12-65.

I totally agree !

OTS is pretty loud amp. Once again check your tubes – pre and power end other components. Get celestion CENTURY speakers – 102db.
Or take your OTS to amp tech.

Hey guy's thanks for the help. I've tried all the above mentioned hints to no avail. For now, I'm running Eminence Red White and Blue speakers in a 1X12 or 2X12 cab without a lot of difference. Even in my living room with
input volume and master volume at 12 oclock, the amps not that loud. Even with tube swaps, it's the same. Must be something wrong with the amp. I bought it built from Nik sans tubes, and rechecked the bias etc. The tubes are fine in other amps. The master volume doesn't have much gain until I turn it all the way up. Maybe I have a bad pot. I've tried running the amp at 7 or 8 on the input volume and 5 or 6 on the master as suggested, and it's just not there.

If your happy to delve inside theres a voltages chart published somewhere on this forum (recently if I recall), I'd check yours against this standard. You haven't snuck a 12AU7 in there by mistake have you?

Its not a 240v version running on 110 is it?

Tried a different guitar cable? I wonder if it has an incorrect MV pot in there? Email Nik, you'll find him extremely helpful.

I know you shouldn't have to, but it might just be quicker to take it to a tech and have him check it over. 

Here it is

http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=871.0 (http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=871.0)

Beware, lethal voltages inside, take it to a tech if you're not confident.

I haven't read all of the posts in the thread so forgive me if I missed this: Are you plugging into the FET instead of normal input?

Other than that, something must be amiss.  I play through a 2x12 cab and in my house usually setting the preamp volume btwn 4 and 7 depending upon the guitar/style.  With that, the clean is quite loud and normally I don't put my master on much more than 1 to 1 1/2.

I have a Fender Concert Blackface and my OTS is louder at comparitive settings.  Have you double checked your speaker cables, connections et.? 

You'll hear a lot of players say they run the Volume between 5 to 7 depending on whether they are using humbuckers or single coils.  I would agree.  I often run mine higher, even full up.  I'd qualify that by saying my internal trimmer is set low, around 9:30.

For the OD cahnnel I often want a tone that's really close to my clean tone just with a bit more drive and compression.  To get this, try turning the Level all the way down and the Ratio all the way up.  Then balance the volume between the two channels by turning up the Level.  Mine ends up around 2.

Kind of a saturated clean and a fairly clean overdrive.

I don't think I've ever had to turn the Master past 7.  Usually nowhere near that.

The tone controls, especially Treble and Mid affect the overall volume also.

Check to see if your volume is still low with the PAB on.  Since that disengages the tone controls it may tell you something.

Agree with all these comments. I run v=12 m=12 with a loud band with no problem.
I have a 1 x12 cab with EV 12L ( 100db ). Ok compaired to say Dizzy 30 which I run at v=3  m=12 it is less gainy but should easily keep up with the band. Something is wrong under the bonnet :(

Are you guys talking about the clean channel only, or the overdrive
channel? My beef is with the clean channel only. If I run the clean channel only with v=12 and M=12 I can't play it in a band. The overdrive channel is a different because I can turn up the OD level and OD ratio.

The clean channel is loud. Easily more head room than a BF Vibrolux, you are producing around 40watts with a SS rectifier. Mine would also say cleaner than my AC-30 at a good volume.
With a 2x12 cab you should not be having any problems with clean sounds. unless your drummer and bass player are from one of these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world)
Get your amp checked out something is wrong.
Nick

Hi Docmh,

I've had second thoughts about the OTS clean channel.  ???
I have been running with the Klein-ulator in the loop but since getting a TC nova reverb I no longer need it. ( TC takes 16dB input ! ).
I have been using my Dizzy 30 which has loads of gain.
On Tuesday I used the OTS with no Klein-ulator and had to have V=7 M=7 to be heard above the band, and we are not that loud.
o/d is another story but I am talking Matt Schofield/Albert Colin's cleans.

So I checked my Klein-ulator which is set at Send=max Return=Max Recovery=2 o'clock. I injected a signal of 220mV into the input and measured the output. It was 1.2V !! So I have been working with a X5 gain in the loop  :-\

I will probably utilise my Red Snapper for clean solos in future as I am the lead vocalist and it is convenient to have a clean solo boost pedal when 80% of my brain is devoted to vocals.   Obviously the PAB is no good for clean boost as it drastically changes the tone.

o/d is exactly the opposite with huge gain available. I usually use lg=3 lm = 4
But I generally only use o/d in the last 12 bars of a solo.

John

Volume is very deceptive. At home Vol7 (for single coils) Master5 seems massively loud, but at a rehearsal its just OK. I've never had my master above 7 yet and we have a very loud drummer.

I also have swapped v2 for a 5751 which reduces the OD volume quite a bit, so its in the same ball park as the clean channel.

I do know that the DC-30 is reputedly a very loud amp for 30 watts and I'm looking forward to giving it a try (kit has arrived, I just need some time to get it put together).

Guitar players are always too loud ask any sound guy....

Point the amp at your head, stand in a place were you are getting the full throw of your cab, don't stand over the top of your amp it's not what your audience or a microphone is hearing.
A mic will let you be heard out front. Unless you are playing a bar room jam then turn up a little more, but walk out front and see how loud you really are in the crowd.

I've used a 50watt OTS on many gigs. My experience has been that that the master vol does not need to go over 3-4 to balance with a good drummer (he sets the dynamic level of the band) maybe a max of 5 in a loud band. At that level I'm not enjoying the gig or my sound it's too loud, and if it too loud for me it's too loud for my audience.

Rehearsal rooms are a confined space and with bass and drums and keyboards in there it's sometimes hard to here yourself and how loud you really are.
I've use many higher powered amps, a music man hd 130, fender twins, 100 watt marshalls etc and the OTS is  loud enough on it's cleans.

If you find your cleans are not in the mix ....it's the mid range of your sound were it's at. It can give you presence in the band without volume.

Remember that a guitar is not a bass it does not need to reproduce it's frequencies  so in isolation your sound maybe a bit thin etc... but in a bands mix it will sit.



Nick

I am going to vote with Nick. My OTS is very loud with G & M set at 3-4. It is always mic'd at gigs, so crowd volume is set at the board. You absolutely cannot judge how you sound standing directly in front of, or over, your amp. Especially if it is on the floor projecting parallel to the floor. You have to stand back at least 15 feet depending on the room. I rehearse using  a Fender super champ (15W) in 20' x 25' space with a drummer who beats the hell out of his kit and it will be too loud if I crank it above 5 or 6. It is hard for me to imagine the sound levels of an OTS at 7 in a small closed room.

Same experience here. My 36W feels much louder than the OTS on the clean channel. I also feel that the difference in volume, comparing the clean to the overdrive channel volume is a BIG one. There are a lot of people reporting this. I think it´s not a problem, but the character of Nik´s circuit instead.

My amp is newer version. I bought it in Oct. 08 and got it in late November.
I'm wondering if those experiencing volume problems have the newer amps with the Zucker/ Ayan changes. Do you guys with loud amps have the older S&M version
or newer ones?

I have an original and did most of the Zucker mods and it didn't change the volume that I noticed. I also did some of pickmasters mods, still no change.

When you have master at 3 o'clock and the volume at 12 oclock, what do you have to have the OD level and ratio at to achieve the same audible volume ?

Hi,

  Max clean headroom is usually achieved with Vol set high, like 2-3 o clock, and master set low, 11 o clock or so.

  This'd depend on the guitar/setup used as well.

  If it's not loud or sounding weird, a check is needed. A preamp tube might have failed.

  A failed preamp tube doesnt mean no sound, the amp'd work still as sometimes, only 1 side of the triode (12AX7 has 2 triodes) has died, or not working correctly.

  The best way to verify is by looking at voltages. The plate and cathode voltages will be quite way off than usual.

  Sorry to say, but Tungsol reissue 12AX7s had a lot of issue with 1 side failing, for some reason.

   We did use some before, so if your amp has Tungsol 12AX7s, and sounding weird, this is to be checked.

  I am not sure if the new ones are fine, could have been a bad period / batch from them.

Thanks!

nik

My amp tech feels the same about Tungsols.
For some reason these tubes are not very reliable, actually all tubes coming from that particular plant.
He actually prefers JJ, much more reliable tubes.

Although they sound pretty good, I have had about 3 newer Tung Sol 12AX7s crap out on me in the past year.  Having used JJs for about 4 years now, I am pretty much convinced that they are, on average , the best sounding and most reliable tubes out there, for the price.  Both pre-amp and power tubes. There are other good ones , but I am always satisfied with JJs. Bob at Eurotubes sells only JJs and does the best matching I have seen.

As to the low Clean volume phenomena on the OTS... My OTS was shipped late April 2008. I have no idea what version that is, maybe s&m because it can be pretty bright. Now if all the switches are down, the clean volume is anemic (very weak). When in  the Bright and Rock positions it is very loud and actually can be louder than the OD mode depending on how the OD and ratio are set. One of the tricks for this amp is figuring out how to manage volume between the clean and OD modes. As the sole guitarist in a band that plays blues & blues rock I have to change tones frequently, and this has been a challenge with the OTS, but I have it fairly well figured out now.

I was disappointed with the tone of the amp when first built, though the volume was fine. It took quite a few hours for the character to 'emerge'. It was 'dead' to begin with, now it is bright and toneful.

For a little light crunch I'd recommend a Menatone Red Snapper and I also believe  the Xotic RC Boost to be very good though I haven't had one to try, I intend getting one asap. Klon Centaur very highly rated but original examples are expensive.

Burning in is NOT a myth! My father and I are into audiophile speaker equipment because he's a top notch speaker builder and I see first hand that everything needs to be broken in. It's not as apparent in guitar equipment but it's incredibly obvious in a very high end stereo setup. The wires, the wire jacks, the caps, all components, the speakers... EVERYTHING has the be broken in. If we change an interconnect wire, sometimes it'll sound bad until its broken in... if we use an input we didn't use before on a new DAC, we have to break that in. It took us a while to learn our lesson. Things would sound bad without explanation, even the vendor would say there's no break in period so that he could sell the product. I swear, I'm not the type to be biased or hear things lol...