Ceriatone Forum

Hi All,
I've been reading and listening to all this great info for a couple of months as I prepared to buy, then did order a OTS 50W, MM OT, assembled by Nick--first time buying a pre-made amp in many years.  Have had it for a week, and gotta say I'm pretty frustrated at how it sounds.

A little background: I have built a couple of Tweed Deluxe's 5E3's, a Deluxe Reverb, JCM800, Champ, Firefly, and a homebrew single-ended deluxe reverb----and love all of them.  And have built most of my effect pedals.  I gig with this stuff about twice a month in your typical "party rock" type cover band.  I have to cover many different styles.  Play Strats mainly, sometimes Tele or LP.

The clips on-line are fabulous sounding, the wonderful single note breakup and near infinite sustain, that can sometimes verge on feedback sold me on this amp.  Granted I'm not a fusion player or in the league of most of you, but have played for 30 years or so, in front of people.

So to the point.  Have tried an open back cab with either a Weber Silver Bell, or a Weber 12F150 which is a DR, (Jensen), type speaker.  Boxy sounding.  Also tried it with a Marshall 2x12, (1966A) unknown speakers, but does great blues to rock with my JCM800.  But is like a blanket is over it--very sterile and flat.  BIAS is OK.  Need Prescence up to 7 or 8 out of 10.  Most everything else is around noon as people and the manual say to try---not happening.  Overdrive is more like fuzz.  Clean is just characterless.

Where to go next--yeah have read where people say give it a month or so---really? (My JCM800 was GREAT a day after I built it.)   Or do I need a speaker shoot-out?

any info or ideas would be greatly appreciated
Chris

You've got tone knobs - use them! They're not there for decoration. No-one's said to leave them at 12 o'clock - just to use that as a starting point. On my bluesmaster, which I'm still breaking in, I currently have the treble knob at 6 1/2, the middle knob on 4, and the bass knob on 3. My 4x10 cab with some kind of generic speakers is kind of dark sounding, so these settings get things in the ballpark for me.

ah yeah, I have used the tone knobs--not my first amp.
but thanks anyways

Two things off the top of my head.

1.  Break-In time.  I'm sure you know this, but it's worth mentioning.

2.  Try the EVM-12L (of -12S, which I prefer).  I'm running one of each in a closed back cab and there is no boxiness about it.  

Keep us posted though.  Also, I find that the Tung-Sols 12ax7s and TAD 6L6-GCs are superior to the JJs.


Stephen

Pretty much the same reaction I had when I first got mine. I have modded mine a few times (I now have a three way bright switch amongst others) and I still want to mess with the OD channel as mine is the non-hrm and the od channel is a tad too bright.

Anyway, mine improved massively with a long burn in, it is now too bright and chimey with the bright on and treble above about 6-7.

So, do the burn in.

Check your wall voltages, I sometimes feel underwhelmed by my amp, its as though it has moods and I am convinced its because of varying wall voltage, I have only recently bought a plug in meter and have seen 227-238. I didn't have the OTS fired up when it was 227 but I bet it would have had a notceable difference.

Bias, maybe go a little on the hotter side.

Too obvious I know, but guitars that sound fine through my Plexi 50 sound cack through the OTS when the strings have dulled. Change em.

OD trimmer. Play with it, it sounds like you might have it too high if your OD sounds fuzzy. It won't like pedals if you have it too high, I personally like it with just a touch of hair, more like a pushed celan channel.

PI balance. It might be your PI has drifted since Nik set it up. You need to set it with 6 volts more on pin 1 than pin 6 (double check this before doing it- search this forum I might have got it the wrong way round).

Speakers. Hmmm...... we could all spend a fortune trying different ones. I have a 4x10 closed back ported Jensen P10r's and it sounds nice and bright but these speakers are not good when loud, a bit hard on the ears. I also have a 2x12 open back with an Eminence Tonespotter and an EVM12-L and that is much better, not completely convinced by the Tonespotter and have a Red Fang waiting to go in there but I don't have much opportunity to play loud anymore so I'm in no hurry. I have also played it through  my combos speaker a G12-65 and for moderate volume this is really good.

Where do you stand? Some speakers can be very beamy and what you are hearing might not be what others are hearing. When testing make sure you move around and check this. Google 'Jay Mitchell donuts' if you want a simple solution to a beamy cab.

Valves. If you don't like what you hear now valves (and speakers) will only make a marginal difference, but it will make some.

Presence only makes a difference above 7 so thats normal.

So, if you have a Hotplate or something else you can use as aloadbox, plug a source in and let it burn in for a good while. Alternately just run it in the ON position with nothing plugged in for 3 or 4 spells of 8 hours (while you are around, not while you are out!) Don't play it in the meantime, just come back to it later and see if you can tell a diference.

I agree with Hywel and can’t add more than that.
New OTS is like a new leather glove, you have to wear it a lot and adjust, stretch, etc.
It is extremely tweakable ! which is great, I strongly believe that every player should tweak it to their style and it will become part of you.
Especially when you can tweak.
Be cool.

For me the same story,amp sound nice with a compressor and a little delay in the front otherwise it sounds bad.(popping,harsch)
The overdrive channel is the biggest dissapointment, indeed fuzzy,i am still thinking something is wrong with the amp.

Stil searching for some one to check the amp.

You are from Holland as I know.
Why aren’t you contact Erwin? He is the man !

This will be my first post on this site, after months of trying to learn as much as I can about the D style amp. I also have a
Nik assembled OTS 50. As much as I didn't want to believe the burn-in mojo, as time goes by it becomes more and more
evident the amp over time keeps gettng better, and better. I also agree with the "ditch the JJ's" There  is just something
harsh about them in this style of pre-amp.(I  do use these in my Zinky MOFO with great results, but it's kind of a apples/
oranges kind of thing.) Above all be patient, use your ears, I tried 20 different speakers/cabs/tube combos etc. The tones
are there, it's just a matter of finding the correct recipe that suits the sound in your head. One man's ideal tone formula
is anothers disaster. After chasing tone for 40+ years ( With enough $ to have bought a Porsche or Two...LOL...) I can
say without a doubt, Nik's take on this stlye of amp is worth the time, and effort to find your voice. Keep searching the
magic is there....

how did you guys know I had JJ's in there?  (have been happy with them in other amps) will try some others.

ace1962--thanks for the concurrence about burn in etc---and yeah - I need another amp like I need a hole in the head. 

Hey Chris,

The amps come from Nik stocked with JJs, so just an assumption on us.  These amps are great for changing out tubes, so experiment away.  Nik can give you an idea of what kinds of plate voltage the transformers can handle.

FWIW I thought the JJ's were terible in my amp. Very 2D, mushy and flat IMO. Tung sol for V1 and V3 and NOS for V2 is my favorite combo so far.

my BM50 breaks up beyond 2 (clean) with my Kinman single coils, and 2 with my Fender SCN

Is this normal?
I want a clean tone when no boost or OD is on, but just about going into compression, and I add a little grit with the ODs both on 5 and the trimmer on 2 o'clock.
Are the JJs just too hot for me, or am I just the odd one out wanting a clean tone? Should I put a 5751 or a 12AT7 in v1 like in my 5E3 ??
(http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html (http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html))

Cheers
Tone

Bluesmaster's have limited headroom because of the PI they use (Marshall/Fender PI),especially the 50w BM.

I don't see the BM breaking up @ around 2 o'clock. On my 100w amp the only thing that's bluesmaster spec is the phase inverter (The Clean tonestack is a Skyliner and the HRM  is just standard HRM) and it breaks up (with the Master) @ 12 o'clock and the (Pre amp Vol) @ 6 o'clock. And the amp is pretty friggin loud @ that point. With those settings the amp feedbacks into itself (of course I use a D-lator as the Final Master too).

 I recommend finding someone to mod your PI to Skyliner specs and keeping the BM tonestack if you don't dig the sound now and if your not getting enough headroom.

Some folks don't have headroom problems with the 50w OTS although...?

my BM50 starts to break up at 2 (as in 2/10), not 2 o'clock (and 3 o'clock with a quieter strat SC pickup). I run the master vol at 8 (3 o'clock)
both OD at noon (i.e. 5/10)
tbh, most of my amps do break up at 9 o'clock, I'm talking about breakup rather than overdrive. I run my Fuchs ODS30 at 10 o'clock, and that's very fendery clean there. I'm just wondering if anyone's tried different tubes in the BM50. I do like its sound (although it's a little dark, even with a Celestion Gold I'm setting the presence and treble very high, which is very unusual for me), so I'm not looking to mod it (other than to reverse the deep switch and lower the PAB gain)

Cheers
Tone

That sort of breakup would be consistent with the BM Phase Inverter configuration. The 'standard' OTS PI has a bit more headroom....too much for many. Combine that with the fact that the Master Volume is Pre Phase Inverter and I was initially confused as to why I couldn't get any dirt out of my clean channel (standard OTS).

Well, here's what I've done so far.   I adjusted the PI trimmer--was only 2 volts delta, correct to 6.

Then I ordered some Tung Sols.  So in the mean time I tried some tubes I had.  First I took out the JJ 6L6's and put in JJ KT77's.  Much better, not as dark.  Then replaced the JJ on V1 with a Sovtek.  Much much better, richer sound.  (I have EH in V2, V3).   Then I had a couple of spare/new Mesa Boogie labeled 6L6's from when I used to haul around a Nomad---a stupid heavy amp, now sold.  Wow what a difference. 
Starting to like it, do think that the Tung Sol's will help the most since this is more of a preamp voiced amp.  The amp has no longer has that "blanket over the speaker" sound any more. 

Will post as progress is made.

thanks for the ideas! 

Will try speakers last--tube are cheaper to start.

How many hours do you have on it now?

I too felt a bit cheated that I was supposed to buy Alnicos to make my BM50 work. Why make an amp with a response that needs a pricey speaker?
Now I have finally put a single Celestion Gold in front of the BM50.
Result = amazing, the BM50 with a 1x12 Celestion Gold now sounds much better than my Fuchs ODS with Fuchs 2x12
Just bite the bullet and get some Celestion Golds (even though I keep unluckily getting buzzy ones). You'll need them for other amps at some point anyway

In terms of number of hours on the amp---had it a week -- so less than 5 hrs.

I got my HRM 50 from Nik ready to plug and play a week ago and have about 5 hours of playing time on it. I bought a hermida 1x12 closed back with ported front  cab and put an EVM-12L in it. My general impression is this amp is a great product.  Incredible sustain and lead channel. Not sure about head room yet or how to use all three footswitch positions with regard to just the super clean power amp on and no gain Its chrystal clear. Im not using any effects at all yet and havent dimed it yet. Its sounds better than any other amp Ive had at low volume
I think a EV12L or a G12-65 is a good choice as Robben Ford uses g12-65s and Carlton and SRV used EVM 12Ls....thats good enough for me.THere are used ones available at resonable prices and warehouse speakers makes a g12-65 clone that is 89 dollars.

Then I'll go back to what I said earlier. Don't spend too much time analysing it now, burn it in properly before making any decisions.

@ ToneControl, regarding early breakup, what are the other settings you are using?  Are you speaking of 2 on the Volume (first knob) or Master?  If you are running the preamp vol high, that *could* account for it.  But I'm thinking it may be a bad preamp tube.  It shouldn't break up that low.  I have a 100w w/ a 1/2 power switch, and I still just get saturated, compressed cleans when both the Vol and Master are at 5 on the 50w setting.

@ Chris, I agree with hywelg, just keep playing it.  When I got the amp, I turned it on, set it on standby, and went to bed.  Next day, I played the hell out of it, and I can speak for the amp rounding out and settling in.  It's amazing the difference.

I like my amps to be just on the edge of breaking up, and I use the pick to vary the tone
It's a 50w BM / HRM
With normal strat SCN pickups, well the neck pickup usually, I run it at (these are the numbers, not o'clocks):
vol 3
deep off, mid off
Rock
Treble 8-9
Mid 5
Bass 2-3
OD 5
OD level 5
master 8
Presence 8
halfpower not on
OD trim, about 2 o'clock
with this I can get clean , then add grit with the OD or PAB
any more than 3, it's saturating (and I like that, but I use a 5E3 or quad 6L6 5x3 for that
It just seems odd that some amps break up at 7 (jtm45 clone), but many at just 9 o'clock (5E3, dz30, Fuchs ODS30). My real DC30 works for me between 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock on the EF86 channel & the ecc83 one
Maybe I should fot a treble bleed cap on my guitars and take the volume down on them, but I do like the full tone from a guitar on max

Anyone tried diff valve types in a D-Clone?
This BM50 sounds in the same league as my DC30 btw.
DC30 does a few other tricks too though to be fair. It's the only loud amp  I've found can sound OK at low vol just using master vol

Cheers
Tone

I play mostly Strats through mine and I set my volume around 7 and my master at 2-3 and my volume is around 5 for a Les Paul.

Your v1 tube must be faulty if you are getting too much breakup with your vol set on 3 with a Strat.

I have had mine for about 1 1/2 years and I still reckon it sounds the best after it has been switched on for an hour or so, before that it still sounds a bit muddy. But a burn in period is a must for these amps, I left mine on for 2 days and it made a huge difference.

As for tubes. Tung Sol's seem to one of the popular choices (haven't tried them personally but they're on the shopping list) but I have tried a old Mullard in V1 once (it was in an old Marshall Plexi a friend of mine found at the recycling depot), loved it, smooooooth everything. That would be my tube of choice if you could find one and it didn't cost an arm and a leg.

I do find this amp easier to dial in a good sound with humbucker guitars than single coil's but once you find that sweet spot it sounds good with anything.

Fully agree with Nairbr regarding amp settings for both Strats and les paul guitars.

However, if the amp in question is a BLUESMASTER, early breakup will happen if the BASS POT is above 2½-3 (8:00-8:30 o'clock). The Bluesmaster amps are bass monsters, so you have to keep that pot way down.

There seem to be some confusion regarding the Bluesmaster, people tend to believe that the PI (Phase inverter) and/or poweramp is the reason for ealy break up in Bluesmasters. It all comes down to excessive bass in the Bluesmaster preamp. Period :-) If you want a balanced tone from the Bluesmaster preamp, you have to keep the Bass (and mid) control really, really low.

If you are in doubt about this, make a search for a picture of Matt Schofield or Larry Carlton's Bludo BLUESMASTER settings, and you will see that both players have the tone control settings close to:

- treble at '5' (12 o'clock)
- mid at 3 (9 o'clock) and
- BASS at 2½ (8:30 o'clock).

You might argue that a stellar player like Scott Lerner, who use mostly Bluesmaster amps (Glaswerks and Bludo's) has his tone controls at noon?? Yes, but Scott Lerner almost always plays lead guitar on his clips - with OD and PAB on. AND Scott use MAGA BOOST, which in effect means that in his clips the tone controls are not active at all.

Hope this helps

Matt Schofields settings on Larry Carltons amp, November 2009

And here is Larry Carlton's settings

Hopefully (snow conditions) I can pick up my amp tomorrow. I'll post my settings. (BM pre amp with OTS PI and power amp.
Greets and happy Hollidays
Steven

I'll try a high preamp and low master setting, but I usually try to leave the master as high as I can to get good cleans, like on my Twin II with good flat bright speakers.

I saw the photos, and it's worth noting that the settings I use on my Fuchs ODS are completely different to what I use on my BM50:
On Fuchs low OD 1 (9 o'clock), noon for OD2, flat EQ, low presence. this is with the Fuchs 2x12 with very dark Eminence Red white and blues
on the BM50, trebly EQ, low bass, high presence, both OD on noon. BM50 is still darker (with a celestion Gold, more so with a Fane AXA12, dark as you like with any non-Alnico driver).
I would conclude that the Bludotone settings don't necessarily map across to the BM50. Nice to see the pictures though

tbh I am very happy with the BM50 other than the upside-down deep switch and the overkill PAB, so these are on the list for my tech to remedy.
I would like a little more brightness, but only half as much as the bright switch gives

Cheers
Tone

Is Larry Carlton's amp set to jazz mode on those photos?

anyway, just tested my Bm50 with low master vol + high preamp vol
Certainly is a lot cleaner with high Vol and low master vol, sounds a little thin though - not sure if I prefer it, will try more EQ settings soon
With OD on (and trim down to match the new vol/master settings), the OD is a lot smoother but more distorted.
More like the traditional Carlton tone, but I'm not sure I like it as much as my normal settings

Anyway this amp is complicated enough to dial in sounds without this to add to my options
This amp is so flexible

Interested topic!

@Tonecontrol: according to that pic, Carlton seems to have the bright switch down and mid boost and rock switch up where Schofield has the bright up and rock up, mid down. Try different treble bleed caps on your guitars, it really comes in very handy and you'll find yourself playing more with the volume and tone knob on the guitar to get different sounds. P.S. how can you have the master up so loud? Mine is at 4 but I lower the overall volume with a Fuchs Reverbrator (send and return at 25%). Yet the volume is still quite loud for playing at home.

@ topicstarter, hans: I have to say that after some months of constant dailing in different settings and being not happy I think I have now a setting which I quite like with both my Telecaster and Les Paul. I'm just slowly starting to know this amp... I've been dialing in less and less overdrive, too much seems to make the amp sound a bit blurry/mushy and I run the amp quite bright as well, which can be fairly useless when playing at your own but simply great with a band. Have a listen to Robben Ford's most recent sound, it can be really bright at times, especially with his Telecaster! The OTS doesn't show it's full potential when played at home, it's really a stage amp imho. Just like with Marshall's... though the Fuchs Verbrator 'master volume' feature does really do wonders to the sound at home. Without it's just too bright.

well, I bought a detached, brick-built house for a reason! It is quite loud.When I want to be quiet, I play my DC30 or use an Isobox I had built
As I say, I have master=8, vol=2-3; about same dB in the room as master=2, vol = 6-7 (both in rock mode)
I couldn't see the switches that well in those photos. Which way is on for the switches on those amps?
On the BM50 it should be up=on (athough the deep switch is wired wrong)
On my Fuchs ODS, on is up too

I do plan to try treble bleed caps again (I stopped using them a long time ago), although I have learnt from my DC30 that with the right amp/speakers, it can be more about tweaking the treble down on the guitar when running the guitar on full volume.

I tried a kleinulator and I didn't feel it improved the sound, so I don't use the FX loop