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Author Topic: Loose low end on Overtone????  (Read 16312 times)
archelo
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« on: July 08, 2008, 02:10:17 AM »

Hi guys! I've been breaking in my OTS now for about a month and continue to be impressed by the variety of tones it can achieve. Today I found something that I hope I can correct. The low end sounds a little loose when playing at anything above moderately loud volumes. The OTS is stock as received from Nik, no mods done yet.

Speaker cabinet details:
I'm using a repro Fender Bandmaster piggyback style 2 x 12 cab that is loaded with Celestions...one Vintage 30 and one G12H Heritage. They are both 8 ohms and are wired to operate at 4 ohms...this is because I have a 64 Fender Bandmaster that pairs up with the cab which, as you all already probably know, runs at 4. The combination of these two speakers sounds fantastic with both the Fender and the OTS. I know the problem is not the speakers because the Bandmaster sounds very tight and focused when cranked. 

OTS settings are as follows:
Volume: 5
Bright: Down
Deep: Down
Rock/Jazz: Rock
Treble: 5
Mid: 5
Bass: 3
OD Channel Level: 5
Ratio: 3
Master: 3
Presence: 5

Just for a frame of reference...these setting nailed Robben Ford's 'Rugged Road' sound....

I noticed that when I switched to the Jazz setting, the low end kind of tightened up but the overall tone wasn't the same. I tried to adjust some settings but it lost some sustain which makes sense after reading some of the posts on that subject. Anyway, the overall sound is great but it would be nice to have the low end tightened up a bit. 

Do you guys think if I install 2 X additional 47uF, 350V caps in parallel to the 2 X 100uF, 450V from factory (Zucker Mod) that it would solve this problem? 

Maybe a mod to the Rock/Jazz circuit?Huh?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 02:12:13 AM by archelo » Logged
Mitch
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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 07:35:36 AM »

Adding more smoothing to the power supply should firm the bass a little- my OTS does mush out a little too at times, especially with a Les Paul. You might try lowering the OD circuit trim pot a little, or changing the value of the snubber caps on V2- I upped mine to 330pf as per the Zucker mod sheet- this certainly smoothed out the top end with overdrive engaged. Check your values- you may want to re-install 270pf or lower to brighten the OD.  Also- re-check your bias- raising it to 70% dissipation will certainly firm up low end response.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 07:38:03 AM by Mitch » Logged
bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 10:35:59 AM »

if you bass weakness is a problem in BOTH clean and OD - then look a the powersupply caps as you've suggested.

If it only happens in OD, then you should try the "Ayan Gil mod" from ampgarage.com.
....install a 10m resistor (input to ground)/ 47 nF (input to on the input of the OD just before the 220k resistor) this will trim off a little low end and make the tone less wobblely in OD
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fullerplast
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 04:11:16 PM »

With the master on 3 the power supply is barely breathing hard, so I would not look at the filter caps as a solution to your problem.

More than likely, if this is one of the newer amps with the 4.7uF cathode bypass caps, your problem can be solved by going back closer to the original design values of 1.0 and 2.2uF. Increased low end response is what happens as you increase the cathode bypass caps.

Try 2.2 or 3.3 in one or both spots and see if it solves your problem. I think 4.7 may be a bit too much in my personal opinion, based on the results I've had with my own amp. (I'm also now getting a bit too much low end with 4.7's.)
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bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 06:23:26 PM »

Just for info, the amp has the folloving values

3,3k / 5uf is 10hz cut off frequency
2,2k / 5uf is 14 Hz cut off frequency

You are suggesting

3,3k / 2,2 uF is 22 hz cut off freq
2,2 / 2,2 uF is 33 hz cut off freq

OR

3,3k / 1 uF is 48 hz cut off freq
2,2 / 1 uF is 72 hz cut off freq

Just to get the record straight, what Fullerplast is suggesting has the exact same effect as the suggested Gill Ayan mod.

Anyway
If the problem is both in clean and OD mode try recuding the cathode values on V1.
If only in OD mode then do it only on V2
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archelo
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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 08:03:23 PM »

Just for info, the amp has the folloving values

3,3k / 5uf is 10hz cut off frequency
2,2k / 5uf is 14 Hz cut off frequency

You are suggesting

3,3k / 2,2 uF is 22 hz cut off freq
2,2 / 2,2 uF is 33 hz cut off freq

OR

3,3k / 1 uF is 48 hz cut off freq
2,2 / 1 uF is 72 hz cut off freq

Just to get the record straight, what Fullerplast is suggesting has the exact same effect as the suggested Gill Ayan mod.

Anyway
If the problem is both in clean and OD mode try recuding the cathode values on V1.
If only in OD mode then do it only on V2

First of all...please bear in mind that I am a novice and will probably ask some stupid questions so i apologize in advance! I really appreciate all your help

Just to confirm...the cathode bypass caps are connected to V1 and V2 via pins 8 correct? My OTS should be the newer version with the Zucker mods so they both should be 4.7uF caps. I will check that tonight.

By "2,2k and 3,3k" are you referring to the resistors installed in parallel with the  bypass caps on both V1 and V2?

Here are the part numbers I found in the Mouser site for the caps:
140-XAL63V2.2-RC = 2.2uF Axial Electrolytic Capacitors 63V 20%
75-516D105M050-E3 = 1uF Axial Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors 50volts 20%
594-2222-021-38338 =  3.3uF Miniature Axial Electrolytic Capacitors 63volts 20%

Do these look like the right part numbers I need for this mod? I figure I would get all 3 values and see which ones work best.

thanks again for the help!

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bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 08:33:32 PM »

[quote/]
Just to confirm...the cathode bypass caps are connected to V1 and V2 via pins 8 correct? My OTS should be the newer version with the Zucker mods so they both should be 4.7uF caps. I will check that tonight. [/quote]

yes, pin8 and pin3
[quote/]
By "2,2k and 3,3k" are you referring to the resistors installed in parallel with the  bypass caps on both V1 and V2? [/quote]

yes, pin3 and pin 8 on V1 AND pin3 and pin 8 on V2

The parts you have listed are all fine, but you still need to answer the basic question: Is your bass issue evident in both clean and OD mode ??
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 08:35:30 PM by bluesfendermanblues » Logged

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fullerplast
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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 08:46:08 PM »

Just to get the record straight, what Fullerplast is suggesting has the exact same effect as the suggested Gill Ayan mod.

I suppose you could say that as a general description....i.e. decreased low end response....but I would not go as far as saying you would not hear a difference.

As you mentioned, the cathode bypass caps affect one or both stages and are located at different points in the circuit so depending on what you wanted to do WRT to clean/OD alterations and what value caps you use, they will almost certainly sound different. YMMV of course and the truly curious would be best off trying both. Cheesy

(FWIW, Gil actually uses 4.7M in his version, the 10M is a non-Gil variation of the theme...)
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archelo
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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 08:58:14 PM »


First of all...please bear in mind that I am a novice and will probably ask some stupid questions so i apologize in advance! I really appreciate all your help

Just to confirm...the cathode bypass caps are connected to V1 and V2 via pins 8 correct? My OTS should be the newer version with the Zucker mods so they both should be 4.7uF caps. I will check that tonight.

yes, pin8 and pin3

[/quote]
By "2,2k and 3,3k" are you referring to the resistors installed in parallel with the  bypass caps on both V1 and V2?
[/quote]

yes, pin3 and pin 8 on V1 AND pin3 and pin 8 on V2

The parts you have listed are all fine, but you still need to answer the basic question: Is your bass issue evident in both clean and OD mode ??
[/quote]

I will check that out tonight if my wife and kids give me a chance...LOL!

I did not test the clean channel but will and will update this post.

Thanks again!
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bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 08:59:38 PM »

Agree with you, but we should suggest the simplest solution for archelo  to use, who describe himself as a newb. ;-), which is why i suggest the Gill Ayan mod. However,a s always each to his own  Grin
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archelo
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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 09:09:59 PM »

Agree with you, but we should suggest the simplest solution for archelo  to use, who describe himself as a newb. ;-), which is why i suggest the Gill Ayan mod. However,a s always each to his own  Grin

I am definitely a newb....no shame in admitting it...

I tried looking for the details on the Gil Ayan mod in ampgarage.com but am not having much luck...a lot of posts to read through. I will keep looking...

Thanks again guys!
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fullerplast
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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 09:17:28 PM »

Agree with you, but we should suggest the simplest solution for archelo  to use, who describe himself as a newb. ;-), which is why i suggest the Gill Ayan mod. However,a s always each to his own  Grin

Difficulty should not be an issue at all with either approach. Both are about as simple as it gets. Wink The cathode cap method does offer a bit more flexibilty.
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bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 10:38:26 PM »

Agree with you, but we should suggest the simplest solution for archelo  to use, who describe himself as a newb. ;-), which is why i suggest the Gill Ayan mod. However,a s always each to his own  Grin

I am definitely a newb....no shame in admitting it...

I tried looking for the details on the Gil Ayan mod in ampgarage.com but am not having much luck...a lot of posts to read through. I will keep looking...

Thanks again guys!

Here Ya go: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5888   Cheesy it's quite easy

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archelo
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 10:53:17 PM »

Just tried the clean channel and it sounds fine to me. Sounds like it is only happening on the OD channel....or...thats how I am  perceiving it. I also confirmed that I do have the mods...5uF caps which replaced the 1uF in the OD channel and 2.2uF in the clean.

So, I should lower the value of that same 5uF cap next to the 2K2 resistor in V2 until I find the value that solves the problem correct?
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fullerplast
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 01:02:57 AM »


So, I should lower the value of that same 5uF cap next to the 2K2 resistor in V2 until I find the value that solves the problem correct?

That's it....
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