Ceriatone Forum

So many times I see the HRM and BM overdrive described as more of a "Marshall" type of drive sound, but how much is it really?

As well as listening to Matt Schofield a lot lately, I've also been listening to a lot of Joe Bonamassa and it has got me to wondering what sort of OD sounds I would be able to get with a Les Paul into whichever OTS I end up buying...

Now I don't expect to be able to get the same sort of tones as he gets from his 2555 (perhaps one of those might be in my future as well...but not for a while yet!!) but is it possible to get the same sort of raw blues tones from either a normal HRM or Bluesmaster??

(Just as an aside, I tried a few Les Paul's today through a Fender Supersonic and loved the OD sound on that amp when paired with the LP...)

Before I give you my feedback, I'd like for you to know that my advice is based purely on my own experience and observation alone with my BM. My experience might be the result of unlearned tweaking of my BM or takings of a wrong approach to setting it up.

In a short, I would go for a OTS or HRM but probably the OTS if you're looking for that typical dumble sound. I'm not saying that that those sounds can't be had out of a BM, but boy it's hard work. I've had my amp for about 2 months now, and I'm still looking for those tones out of my amp. I've changed tubes, speakers had additional mods added to the amp, Clator built in and have extensively tweaked the amp on both the external controls and internal trim pots. The result has been great now, and the OD is sounding great and is certainly getting me closer to those dumble tones I was originally wanting. I do plan on adding an EQ pedal into the loop in which another BM owner on the forum has had some success with, and I should find out today if this gets me sonically there when I pick up the pedal later today.

As you can see, the journey has been a big one, but in saying that, the tones I'm getting out of the amp is nothing short of amazing. The cleans on the BM are immaculate and is by far the best that I've heard out of an amp, but that those tones were easy to setup. The OD on the other hand has been where the journey been. The OD today is to me definitely Marshall flavored now and sounds great after adjusting the internal hrm trims, and this is where the OD has improved the most. Previously, the OD was either too little or too much where it began to get fizzy, but now it I'm able to get some very nice tones out of the channel with PAB engaged. As a matter of fact, these tones are excellent on their own right.

So in saying that, the BM is amazing in its own right and I think the dumble tones can be had out of it, but it's hard work, well for me anyways. The OTS I think, will be easier to get those tones you're after. The BM is probably a better amp or those looking for their own tones, where as the OTS is probably a good amp for those looking for that typical dumble tones.

As far as the HRM goes. Pretty darn Marshall. Now, the question should be, which Marshall? Since I'm not a life long Marshall player it' hard to say. I'm thinking more along the lines of Plexi/JTM/JMP later 60's and early 70's. more than the 80's JCM stuff.

A lot of different sounds can be squeezed out of the Ceriatone HRM. I think alot of it has to do with the second tonestack and the vaious ways to adjust the gain stages. The Ceriatone HRM has an internal OD entrance trimmer, the rear OD control and then of course the front panel controls. All this combined and using the power amp stage (meaning cranking) can get some great sounds. I'll tell you this, it might be debatable by purists about how "Marshally" it is, but it's for certain that it is very "non-Fender" like OD.

Then there will always be those that wouldn't be happy unless it's a real Marshall amp.  ;)

Absooooolutely!  Pleeeeeeeexi!  even with 6l6's.  You oughta hear the same 50wHRM with VOS platinum matched RFT el34's though.  Unreal preamp tones with similar Euro tubes made Plexi era used in them from RFT, Amperex, Siemens, Tungsram, Military mazda or Mullard depending on guitar and cab used.  External c-lator uses 50's Siemens longplate, a wonderful tube for that position.

Had both of my D-clones opened up to the guts sticking up with all paws to the sky in submission during a four hour long session of trimmer tweaking and tube rolling.  Started messing around with my 50w HRM LNFB mod chassis first.  Traced back the shielded wires from the OD trim and they came to a pot.  In the past I noticed that for a similar amount of gain as my OTS I had to crank up the trimmer higher on this HRM.  I noticed that the entrance trimmer was less than halfway up.   Fired up the amp and let warm up a good half hour.  Strummed strings, walked over to the amp, had a hand behind my back and set the trimmer nearly wide open.  Back panel trimmer much more responsive now.   Went to the HRM Stack, dialed in a bit more bass and treble.  I adjusted them while leaving the mids untouched.  A small amount of trimmer movement went a long way there.  Huge flexibilty in that HRM thangie, I'm glad for it and how the amp sounds overall.  Went to PI trimmer and very carefully noted original position, adjusted via ear with high master volume setting, new position, only slightly different from original, but noticeably better tone.  When it's dead on I also noticed more presence.   Tube rolled the preamp for V1 and V2 for a good while.  Settled on early 60's Raytheon Long Blackplate for V1 and Philips Canada (Canadian and higher quality version of Bugle Boy 12ax7 in V2.  American tube in V1 lends Fendery cleans, Eurotrash design in V2 wonderful for the OD voices following that particular V1 in this particular circuit.

Went to the OTS, LNFB mod, pulled the 6l6gc Sylvanias and replaced them with a pair of closely matched and adapted pair of 60-s/70's vintage 6bg6ga GE blackplates, warmed them up, set the PI trimmer, again only slightly different from original, rolled more pre tubes.  That amp will rip your face off with some very agressive tones the way the circuit is set up when the LNFB is lifted, effect is dramatic, not subtle as done in my HRM.  Martshall tones easy to get even with 6l6's or especially these unusual, low cost, amazing sounding secret weapon 6l6 variant tubes.  flip the switch the other way and you get very, very good typical ODS/OTS tones.  Rolled some more 12ax7's and then rechecked the PI setting on the HRM. I had left it running the whole time.  That amp wanted to be a SSS on the clean channel, it could sustain cleans amazingly well and get some nice bloom.

 ;D Ha, ha....that's a good post 212Mavguy. Lot's of good points.

Man, I need to get some of those 6bg6ba's before they're gone and I'm regretting not jumping on them. I guess I've put them off due to the adapter. But it's not really a big deal. I built my cabintet extra tall so it won't be a problem fitting them.

I forgot to mention that the LNFB switch goes a long way to getting Marshall tones. I wonder why a LNFB isn't applied to all D-style amps with a switch to lift it if wanted? I wonder if the Bluesmaster guys would appreciate this mod. I actually play more with LNFB, but will go the other direction often too.

Also good point about letting the amp warm up for awhile before messing around.

Sounds like you have a nice supply of tubes to roll with. Do you play both amps in a dual amp setup? If so, that must be quite the wall of sound.  ;)

Actually I've got the LNFB on my BM, but to be honest I haven't used it yet. Guess because it's concealed at the back where the preamp tubes are. Guess its out of site, out of mind! Will try when it out later tonight!

Thank, but I'm not so much after the typical D-Style OD tones. I want a superb clean first of all, so am leaning towards a BM but am thinking that, since I build my OD sound using pedals on top of a clean sound, I would use those with my Strat and Tele and when I get a Les Paul I could set the OD channel on the amp to use with that...

...just my initial thoughts at this stage...

Holy crap!! really? Depending on were it's set at right now, it may make a rather large difference how you approach the amp, especially on the OD channel. Get mess'n with it!!  ;)

If I had to guess, it was probably shipped with it in the lifted position, like a regular BM, but you may find the OD more pleasing, or atleast more tame-able with LNFB. Either way it changes the flavor to reveal another side of the amps personality. Both clean and overdrive.

When I do a 2 amp setup I like to use an amp tonally diferent from the d-clones, one with more of a crunch to the OD.  My namesake amp, a modified Mesa Maverick 2/12 (Celeshit V30's yanked a long time ago, replaced with JBL MI-12's,  NOS Russky milstock 6p14p-ev for el84's, VOS Mullard 5ar4, VOS Eurotrash 12ax7's) pairs nicely with either D-clone, my Bedrock 651 1/12 that I have yanked the stock speaker and tubes from and replaced them with JBL g125 speaker, old stock Mullard el84's and various Eurotrash 12ax7's.   The Bedrock has an active Klein-y FX buffer featuring a bypass switch and send/return level knobs that controls the overall master volume of the amp like a Klein or C-lator does.  Sustains and sings like a D-clone but with a very strong old school Marshall sound palette.  Tubes? yes, exactly, nice collection.  As far as the 6bg6ga's are concerned, I get mine from eBay and count on them being out of balance, when that tube type is NOS they will drift in current draw during burn in anyway just like any powerful pentode will.  So since they are dirt cheap I go ahead and get 6-8 at a time and match them in circuit wia bias test ports after I burn them in within the amp.  Bought my adapters from ayumitubes on the Bay, Plasticvonaband has a link to a supplier of the gray plate Sylvanias as well as adapters from a non eBay seller, my second fave more low end and presence then the sweet sounding GE's, and the most powerful in the 6l6 family, identical guts to Syl 7581a's, 35w rated insted of 30 like most 6l6gc's.  Get both types.

Managed to play around with the LNFB today and it definitely does change the characteristics if the amp. The OD seems to smoothen out a little but the difference is very subtle. Gosh... It's a common trend with this amp... Every change made is subtle to eventually build that final tone.

This is probably the your biggest and best revelation so far. Sounds like you're on the right track.