Ceriatone Forum

Last friday I had a pleasant meeting with a member of this board; Steven_nl.
We compared his Kleinulator with my Dumblelator.
We also recorded it, so you could share in the joy :chairdance:

Here it is:  www.e-noize.nl/goodies/Dlator_vs_Klein.mp3  (http://www.e-noize.nl/goodies/Dlator_vs_Klein.mp3)
It's a large file(13,5 Mb) so it could take a while!

Track                     Kleinulator                   Dumblelator
My one and only…       0.00-0.42                   0.45-1.22
Funky vamp       1.24-2.00                   2.01-2.39
Landau thing       2.41-3.23                   3.25-4.28
Don’t need no Johnny  4.31-5.05                   5.06-5.48
Talk to your son       5.52-6.33                   6.37-7.19

All tracks are recorded with same settings and no fx in the loop. Also no eq and no other fx are added afterwards.
So it may feel a little to direct, however it's the best method to compare IMHO.
All tracks were normalized, initially I thought it had no volume issues. But the Dumbleator is compressing a fair amount, so it feels louder.

Steven and I are very curious what your opinions are. So please vote and leave a message if you have noticed something.

Erwin

Very interesting comparison. K* seems warmer all the way through than D*, but less noticeable on the cleans maybe. I'd guess you could dial out the difference with the amp eq.

What were your amp settings, I'm guessing but I think you had it quite loud yes? What guitar amd speaker?

Amp was at bandvolume,
guitar; strat, on bridge; mini sd59, mid and neck pick-up; Fralin vintage hot
Speaker; vernet cab with 2x Celestion G12-65

Great work Erwin & Steven,

I liked the Dumbleator - punchier, clearer, louder.
Lovely playing too.
Cheers

The Klein is my only contribution (plus driving down to Erwin's place). The rest is all  Erwin

I found the Dumblelator to be more transparant, it has a bit more bite. The Klein seems a bit warmer.
Cheers
Steven

I couldn't have done it without you Steven!

A comment on the wamer/brighter thing: My dumblelator has a Tung sol 12ax7 tube in it The type of tube is known to have a mid/high spike. With a JJ ecc83(12ax7) it would be less bright.

I voted for Dumblelator as well...
punchier, clearer, louder

Klein was warmer, a little dull compared to Dumblator

Did you try the bright switch on the Klein?

not in the recording. I find the birght switch is nice for some special tones. But I feel it gets a bit nasty if you use it with OD.

Maybe you could try smaller bright cap... you have 270p and 1000p in there.
You could replace 270p with 120p...

...never mind I'm in a building mode and can only think about modding stuff right now...
 ;D ;D

I've not listened yet, but please fill me in on the details as I'm new to the ots world.
I know the K** is from Ceriatone, but where is the D** from? Is it an actual Dumble piece?

Anyone uses Fuchs Verbrator? Compared to Klein or the D?
I'm using BM HRM 50 and wonder what to to buy (I can get the Fuchs here in Germany but it's expansive), where did you buy your Dumblelator?
thanks

Does this mean I need to do *umbleator? :)


It's already in the works, but too much stuff going on here currently.

The chassis is rack type, but made shorter so it'd fit at the bottom of the can (about 7" depth only or so).

Thanks!

Nik

Dumblelator; tube buffered effects loop (a cathode-follower output with a triode gain stage for recovery). The design is by Mr. Dumble.

The Kleinulator is a FET based d-lator.

The D-lator used for this test, was build by me. It's an actual correct and verified design as posted on ampgarage. Since I have no commercial building intentions I have no problems calling it and lettering it as the original.

Hi Nik,

Did you hear something that may speed up that process? ;D
Thnx for listening!

With some luck I'll have Verbrator in my arms in a few days. A friend of mine bought it... I already own Klein, so I will be able to A/B both of them.

 ;)

Well I must confess I do think the "umble"does sound a bit better. It reacts to your playing a bit better as well. On the other hand it is a lot more expensive.
It would be great if you could build the unit. Some of us (me) are not so good with a soldering iron.
If you need a tester just let me know :-). Erwin and me could do a/b testing ;-)

Nik, please consider putting a relay in that rack box to allow for bypass switching. So many effects don't do true bypass and its something that bugs me. You could also consider a relay to bypass the D*ator but that might be contrary to what people want since I guess most would prefer it to be in circuit always.

Also a 9v/12v/18v out would be absolutely marvellous for keeping pedal type effects powered without the need for separate transformers.

Man that would be nice... I was thinking about this as well... the only difference was, I was planing to do that using the amp it self...
12V can be taken from relay voltage regulator... and this (see pict) could be done for 9V
The only problem is, I don't know how much can that relay power supply board provide (current wise)  :(

And having it in the ?*ator means you can use it with other amps.

Sure...


...but after the Overtone, there is not many amps out there I really want
 ;D ;D

Do you have a DC-30? If not you really really want one, believe me!

Don't own one but I did play it... and you're right, it's an awesome amp...but man, I really don't want to think about another amp at this point... I just finish my newborn yesterday and it didn't even cry out yet  ;D

I love the DC 30 for clean. How about a Super reverb?

Hey guys, don't start pushing my buttons... 

 ;D

Hi Steven_NL, Erwin_we and others,

I have just posted some mods to the Kleinulator, which I think will bring it to sound more like the Dumblator:
http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1279.0

Would be very interested in hearing your repsonse and off course even more so, if your performed the mods to your klein and posted your response.

I have close listened to your clips. And it sounds like the Klein in your clip is darker than the Dumblator. You reported that the Dumblator, is compressing a little more than the klein. I hounstly belive that the mentioned mods will bring the two closer in regards to touch, feel, compression.

that means soldering. I can't do it.  No idea how much work this is?

I do agree with Erwin that the Klein seems a bit "stiffer" and less trasparant then his Dumbleator. An experiment would be fun

I don't have a Dumleator, but I'd be willing to visit Erwin ofcourse.

no more than 5-10 min

The dumbleator sounds rounder but the I think the kleinulator is very transparent. are you going to post any with effect like verb verb or delay?

My Skyliner OTS HRM BM is being built for me....It will be done soon I can't wait!!!  ;D
I am gonna be looking for a klein ulater or a d-later soon. This definitely gave me an idea of what I will get.... I am a Verb addict so I NEED one.

Here is a sample of a OTS with dlator and rocktron replifex; http://www.e-noize.nl/goodies/Favourite_dlator_with_replifex.mp3 (http://www.e-noize.nl/goodies/Favourite_dlator_with_replifex.mp3)

Wow can you build me one?

If you are in EU(230v); yes, I have 2 units left I made for test purposes.
If you are located in the USA you'll be better off with a redplate dlator.

 ??? What is a redplate dlator?  Tried to google, no luck. 

Nik is in the process of producing a d*****lator or was as of a few months ago.  I guess I need to email him again and see whats up.

redplate amps.

i think it may be called the loop-a-lator or something. check the website. but if i recall theyre pretty expensive

Got an email from Nik about the "dildolator" as he calls it.  He says he is just waiting for the tranny cover.

haha dildolator. and yes finally! i've been waiting for this did he give you idea on the price?

I did not ask the price.  I thought the name he had for it was the bomb ;D

Dildolator!

Obviously it has more than one use

yeah make sure you wife doesn't get her hands on it.

Yes she might like it... and tube looks tempting as well. 
Just imagine what she could do to a nice NOS tube.
;D ;D

12ax7 or 6L6?

KT66 or KT88? :-[

300B !!! ;D

Where can i get a Dumbleator??????

Erwin_ve: wich country are you from???

Hi Mc, I'm from the Netherlands; I made 4 units; I have one for sale: http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1256.0 (http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=1256.0)
PM me if your interested.
Greetings Erwin

La Hollande. And he's a great guy!

PM send ;)

The other country of cheese? ;D

Other?  ;D
seriously. I'd move there immedeatly if I could afford it. Great country. Thank god it's close.

You made that thing? Torodial transformer?

This shouldn't be so hard. Most modern amps have loop circuitry built in.

Yet it is still the bane of Dumbles and clones after 30 years?

Even if your connecting cables are less than a half meter (your parlance), you still need an impedance matching device?

I took a look at the Boss Line Switcher. Cheap solution?

Outside of tubes, I guess the audiophile way would be J-FETs or MOSFETs.  Of course one can buy a quad op-amp chip for $1, op-amps make fine buffers.

You are very determined to not use a dumblelator, I won't stop you. But if you ever get a chance to compare it in real life, I'm pretty sure you will change your opinion.

I know you've done the real life comparisons. Nice job on the Dumbleaetor too. It just seems like overkill for such a simple task as impedance matching.

Hopefully you haven't received a cease and desist letter from any blue haired lawyers over the Dumbleator.

But thats not all it does.

That and a  tone control for the outboard processor's input.

What was the result between K-lator and Fuchs??

Thanks.

... and it shapes your tone as well... in a good way I might add.
 ;)

Rember to use a higher (than 9v) voltage supply, though.
Often OP-Amps are supplied with insufficient supply, causing them not to tolerate the voltage swing in a tube amp without clipping. They're fine at bedroom volume, but wont stand up at gigging volume.

The Klein-ulator that use FETs has a voltage tripler, turning 9v supply into something more useable.

Are you talking 27 VDC? Like +-13.5 VDC??? You need that much of a voltage swing? I was thinking these were more like "line level" voltages.  Supply voltage shouldn't effect the "slew rate" of an op-amp that much, within the limits of the input voltage.  Sure they'll clip as you approach the supply voltage, hopefully you'd never  come close.

The Fx loop of the OTS is NOT line level; if you crank your mastervolume on the amp it's possible you toast your fx unit.
Some builders report a voltage swing of 100v before going into the phase inverter. I don't think the Klein can compete with that.

100V input to an op-amp chip? With what, supplies of +-15V?????? Would make a nice PWM (clipper) while it lasts.

Vexing problem, this loop thing.

Maybe  Larry Carlton was right all along? Just mic the dry Dumble and process it downstream.

Sorry to be so glib, you've certainly done your share to solve the D-Enigma, many hours I'm sure.

Would somebody please tell me what both the Dumbleator and the Kleinulator are for?

Impendance matching and tone shaping at line levels in the OTS/HRM/Blluesmaster fx-loop.

In simple terms. If you want to put effect pedals or rack effects in your fx loop, there might be a signal mismatch. Especially with older gear.
The Dumbleator and Kleinulator solve this problem. You'll get a better quality of you effects and no loss of volume. They also change the sound of the amp a bit. making it less harsh.

I listened a couple of times to the clip and for me, the Dumblelator is more balanced, more 'in your face' and has better clarity, especially in the clips with overdrive. The Kleinulator then sounds a bit muffled but maybe because Erwin tweaked his amp to the Dumblelator ;) ?

I have to say, if I wouldn't listen carefully I wouldn't hear a difference...

Erwin, do you use the Dumblelator as a kind of attenuator device? I remember you puted tthe Overtone Special up loud (on 1 o'clock?) and the Dumblelator at a much lower volume?

1,5 month to go...

Hi Emiel,

Maybe I will take down the samples.
I now use the dumblelator with different knob settings than I used to. Also my amp has been modded since those clips, to have a better sound with the dumblelator.
If you listen to my amp now without a dumblelator it's the most harsh sounding amp ever. With dumblelator it's heaven :)
Maybe there's a opportunity to do it all over again. The differences will be much bigger than represented in those sound samples.

Yes the master on the amp is at 1-2 'o clock, the dumblelator most right knob acts as a master volume.

Good luck with the waiting job ;D