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Author Topic: different tubes  (Read 9805 times)
bluesdude6
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« on: August 30, 2008, 01:32:21 AM »

I just got my OTS and made a 1x12 combo. My amp/cabinet builder did a fantastic job using Blondish vanilla tolex and using Vox grillcloth. I put in an EV-12ml. The amp sounds a little too much like an older Boogie that hits you in the face with not enough sag or smoothness. I'm used to playing through my Dr. Z Maz 18 Jr. which I love, but thought I could take a step further with this project. I have a G12-65 also in a 1x12 cab that I tried and I like it better, but will also experiment with a Vintage 30 or maybe a Classic Lead 80. does anyone know if I can put in different power tubes without it being a problem? which power tubes should I try? any help would be much appreciated. Oh by the way, I'm a 54 year old blues player and am I'm looking for a cross between Robben and Stevie's tone. thanks, sorry for the Epic letter!
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Dumbleseeker
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2008, 01:43:45 AM »

I must say that I was a little dissapointed when I first got my Overtone.  Afterall, I had waited 13 weeks and mine did not sound like any of the clips I had heard. Little did I know that they all require some fine tuning. However, that is also what makes them great amps. They can be tweaked to your liking.   I would suggest that anyone wanting to change their tone to try different preamp tubes. Huge difference!!!! I wanted cleans so I change all of them to EH Ay7. This created great cleans but not enough grind on the OD. One thought was to turn up the internal trimmer but decided against this. After reading a lot of information I decided to set the trimmer on 10. So in doing so I need to change more tubes. Now V1 has tung-sol 12ax7 ,V2 has 5751 and V3 has EH Ay7. Now it sounds killer and I am considering changing the JJ power tubes to SED 6l6GC. Many thanks to all of you who have guided me in my tone quest. It will never be over but I am getting closer everyday
 
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bobgoblin
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 02:49:40 AM »

I, too, have an EV12L in my 1x12" closed-back, front-ported cab.  Not completely sold on it just yet, but I haven't been able to really get it up to gig levels, so...I did really like the 1265 clone (Warehouse Speaker) I had in the cab before. 

I also changed my preamp tubes, JJ 12AXY (stock) in v1, NOS Phillips JAN 12at7 in v2, and an NOS 5751 in the PI position.  Sounds great, trimmer at about 10:30, PAB & OD engaged.  I also replaced the v2 snubbers to 330pf@500v, and the bass pot cap to .001uf@600v.  That really helped smooth out the top end on the OD side.

As far as power tubes go, I've heard good things about Winged C's, but I'd probably opt to have the amp biased after putting 'em in there.
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bluesdude6
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 05:02:03 AM »

very interesting replies guys, thanks. I found alot of good things said about the Winged C's as well. But do these amps take EL-34's or the KT-66's or whatever they are? I love the Vintage 30 speakers and am going to get one to try in my OTS or maybe a Classic lead, or Modern lead, they have had the tone in the past that I've really liked alot. whatever I try, I'll post what I find after trying it. thanks guys.
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nickm57
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 05:23:36 AM »

Another vote for the "winged c" 6l6 I have been using the old Svetlana 's for years, they are a good balance on reliability and sound.

I'm not sorted on the preamps, sovtek LPS have sounded good in my vox and fenders, I'm not sure if it sounds good in the V2 and old EI did. I think the V2 needs a lower gain tube.

As far as I know the OTS can run EL34's just need to Re-bias.
You can do this without taking the amp apart and a simple multimeter.

Speakers what about something more US, sounding like a jensen or eminence.
I have a Jensen Blackbird, it works well.
Nick
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bluesdude6
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 06:36:44 AM »

Wow! just checked out some info on that Blackbird impressive this are said, should be for that money. If it did it for my ears, I'de buy one, hoping to try one out sometime. And yeah I think the V-2 position is for the Overdrive?  using a 12au or 12at there as well as cutting back the OD trim pot is what I'll be doing. I would like to try some El's in there, but though I have a decent multi meter, not being too technicly inclined, I' wish I could bias this thing myself. I know it can be dangerous, but I'de be willing to learn. I also would try some winged c's, I kinda dig the experimenting part, as long as it gets me somewhere. small rewards can be very fullfilling, onward!
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bobgoblin
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 07:27:28 AM »

For me, putting the 12AT7 in V2 meant I had to kick the trimmer up from ~9 to 10:30. 

For biasing, maybe check out Ted Weber's site for his "Bias-Rite" tool; it might make things easier.

Good luck!
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bluesdude6
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 09:10:40 AM »

Yeah, actually, I guess the amp after getting tamed down a bit with the at7 in there, would need to be bumped up on the attenuator there. I guess I'll see what I need in that respect. I will definately check out those Bias rite units, I heard that name mentioned on a few sites, Thanks for that.
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bluesfendermanblues
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 10:23:22 AM »

Patience my man is all you need - the amp will seriously soften aften a month of intensive playin'. Don't modify it too much before its been played (broken) in.

I've bought 4 x 12G65 celes on ebay and they sound very good as do a lot of other speakers familiar to the celestions, because they tend to break up sooner than EV's, JBL's and Altec, which are pretty hard sounding (when used at bedroom level or even small gig level). They are great for Jazz and country though and for Mark Knofler and EC, who play areans and need a lot of power before the spearkers break up.

I'm sure you would also get a pretty harsh sound if you connect your DRZ amp to the EV speaker. IMHO

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Respect for the big guy's work....we're at this part of the forum because of HAD's amps.
nickm57
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2008, 04:35:10 PM »

For Bias, A cheap digital multimeter will do the job.
The little Black and Red sockets next to the power tubes are what you use, have a look. Measure the millivolts across them. You are only checking a small voltage going to ground across a resistor.  It's very simple and allot safer than opening up the amp and poking around.


As for speakers the blackbird was at a very good price, same as what used EVM12L go for here.

I have used this amp on only 4 or 5 gigs so far, and I'm still getting use to it.  It's sounding great and very versatile. But I'm finding the overdrive a little too grainy.A matter of finding the right V2 tube and setting the trimmer.

On a side note. I used a Riviera Rake the other day on some shows (this was not just a walk on) the amp was on lone to me while I was interstate and although similar, OTS was far more to my liking.
So bearing in mind the cost of a OTS and a maybe a little tinkering involved you can have it all and eat cake.
Nick
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bluesdude6
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 11:30:08 PM »

Hey Nickm57 thanks for that note of yours, I have a basic multi meter but would like a few more exact instructions if possible for biasing, like, do it with the amp off or on?  what readings do you look for? and how do you make adjustments for proper biasing? I know how dangerous this kind of thing can be, so I would like to really get the right instructions so I don't kill myself, that would be the last posting from me eh? I will definately keep my eye out for a Blackbird speaker, I really want to try one. for now, I'm keeping my EV aside and going with the G-65. Right now I've got a 12au7 in pos. 2 for OD, and kind happy with that sound, and will be putting a 5731 I think it is, in the V-1 position to smooth out the cleans, or try to. Also, bluesfendermanblues, I'm sure you're totally right, Patience. I'll be keeping on playing this amp and as it breaks in, and I get used to hearing this new sound, I know i'll be loving it more and more !!!  as I am already !!
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Jimmyd
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2008, 12:03:04 AM »

On a side note. I used a Riviera Rake the other day on some shows (this was not just a walk on) the amp was on lone to me while I was interstate and although similar, OTS was far more to my liking.

Hi Nick, I hope you see this post, but my main amp has been the Rivera Rake for the last 8 years.  I got my OTS about 3 weeks ago and have been to busy with work to really get it dialed in, but what I heard so far my Rake has destroyed the OTS for cleans!!!  I'm not giving up yet by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not hearing the fabled Dumble 3D cleans just yet.  I got a few tricks up my sleeve so more in a couple of weeks.

Thx,
Jim
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nickm57
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2008, 02:21:40 AM »

The rake I used had el34s, don't know if that made a difference, I'm not sure what the speaker was. It was a nice amp but this particular amp didn't have the ots sparkle......Tubes and Speakers maybe? But would your assessment be they are of a similar family.



BIAS...being extra careful.

Turn the amp OFF. Both standby and Power.
Make sure you have a speaker plugged in.

Connect your multimeter to the red and black sockets. You are measuring one tube at a time. So you will need to check both sides.

(If need get some banana plugs leads, that fit the bias points and plug into you multimeter)

Set the multimeter to millivolts.

Turn the amp to On. Look at the multimeter it should read near nothing. Let the amp warm up.

Turn the standby to play. You should see a reading on the multimeter. That is your bias on that tube you are aiming for around 35 millivolts. (This is not set in stone and each tube will read differently)

Turn the amp off. If you want to be Extra,extra careful. Unplug the amp and then turn it on and to play unplugged. Swap the multimeter red lead to the other tube.

Now...

Do the same for the other tube. (note the difference)


In between both power tubes is a pot. This is your bias adjustment.
turning it one way will increase the bias other way decrease.

You can repeat the steps above so you get an average between both tubes.

eg. one tube 40 millivolts one tube 30 millivolts volts. you should not see a difference this big but you may.

if you turn the bias to high you may make the tube glow read, to low the amp will sound weak. 35 millivolts is a ball park.

Let me know if you need more than this.
And other please feel free to correct me.
Nick



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Jimmyd
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2008, 04:33:19 PM »

The rake I used had el34s, don't know if that made a difference, I'm not sure what the speaker was. It was a nice amp but this particular amp didn't have the ots sparkle......Tubes and Speakers maybe? But would your assessment be they are of a similar family.

Nick, I used the Rake with El34's for the first 6 years and it had an amazing clean ( I play in a band that does alot of funk).  I retubed it with 6CA7s and it was just as good, but maybe feelwise slightly different, but it was splitting hairs.  I never knew a clean could be so good out of EL34s.

My predicament is that I need to continue to try speakers and spend more time with the amp.  I'm sure the OTS will eventually be the main gigging amp.

jim
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