Ceriatone Forum

Okay, so I started thinking about what could be making my Bluesmaster so Bass heavy and lacking the brightness i thought it should have. It was kinda frustrating, as the clean channel was almost where i wanted it, but lacked that Fendery shimmer that i craved, and the OD channel was just muddy fizz. Not what i expected. Sure i only had 40 or so hours in it, but still the basic tone should be there. I was ready to perform surgery, changing slope resistors, bass pots, adding treble bleed caps and all sorts of mods, but i got to thinking there has to be a better way, so i started playing around with one of the basic components that the D style amp seems fussy about. The tubes.

First i started with the pre-amp tubes. I had originally installed 7025 tubes from the tubestore.com based on the recommendation of a buddy of mine in all 3 spots. these are supposed to be high gain low noise 12ax7 tubes. they are low noise and high gain, but flat as a pancake tonally (at least in the BM), and they are made by God knows who, so i changed V1 & V3 to some Sovtek 12AX7WA tubes that i have had for about 8 years now and have seen service in my Sovtek Mig50, and my Ampeg J12 and have always sounded very good indeed. I also changed V2 to a JJ 12AX7 i had purchased just for the BM and voila, things instantly got better!! no more flat, boomy, over bassy dull sound on the clean channel. Hot Damn! However, the OD channel was still fizzy. Bummer.
Originally, i had chalked it up to the NOS JAN Phillips 6L6WGB being just not right for the amp. The voltage was just too high, and I couldn't bias them any lower that about 47ma or so, plus they would creep up to 50ma. they sounded like a nice overdriven blackface when pushed, but again the OD channel sounded poopy. I was about to take them out when i remembered my amp had a feature that others didn't... the Sag switch!. The nice thing about the Sag switch is that in my amp it drops the voltage across the tubes down to 425 volts, which allowed me a wider range of bias control from 35ma-45ma, just like it should be able to! So i set the bias to around 44ma, and they stayed there! Now the amp sounds even more blackface fendery on the Clean channel eith every guitar i put thru it, whether it be my old sheraton, my dano, or my strat, and the OD channel sings like no tomorrow! The bass is no longer loose or flabby with or without the deep switch on and i can actually utilize the bass knob! what a concept!!

I've never been so happy in all my life!!!  :chairdance:, and all it took was he flip of a switch yeehaw!

UPDATE:

I switched V2 from the JJ 12AX7 out for a 3rd Sovtek, and it smoothed the OD out quite a bit. very nice! I'm still gonna try a pair of the GE Long plate 12AX7's in V1 and V2 and a Mullard CV4024 in V3 from KCA NOS tubes, but for now i am happy and impressed! It can only get better...

I'm happy for you...   ;)

... let us know how the lp tubes will work out for you.

I absolutely will! The tubes should be here Monday or Tuesday. Bear in mind so far i am playing thru my old 4x12 loaded with ancient eminence legends. The real test will be when my 2x12 combo comes from Gabkits and my 12-65's come from weber. I may be back to square one at that point, but, hey it's part of the fun!

Hello plasticvonaband,
This is first time for me to write here. I am not a native English speaker, so, sorry for my poor English. I don't know much about amps' technologies, either. :'(
I also purchased HRM Blues master 50W model in last November, and I have been having the same problems you had and dissatisfaction about this amp. Too much bass and dull treble, flat and not sexy tones (not like Fender amps), and harsh overdrive sound (it's not creamy at all as I expected for the D-style amps).

I read your topic and knew that you made your amp's normal sounds better changing the preamp-tubes to SOVTEK 12AX7WA. Were you able to get a better overdrive sound by that arragement, too?
One thing I didn't understand was that what the SAG switch was. I asked them to install 1/2 power switch and PI Trimmer, and it has OD trimmer, too. But it seems like SAG switch is the different thing. Is that a special one you only have or all HRM bluesmaster has somewhere inside?

Anyway, I am going to start changing the preamp-tubes. I hope that it will work well to me, too ;)

Hi there, I really dont' agree about those sowtek WA. In my experience the are brittle and harsh.
I can recommend JJ ECC83S for V1 and V2. And for V3 the best tube IMO is the Sovtek LPS, which is easy to adjust proporly with the PI balance.

I use Tungsol 6L6CG's in my 50w bluesmaster and it sounds great.

My first Bluesmaster had a 100w output section with EL34s and those were the reason why that particular amp was much too bass heavy and lacked treble. That particular amp (with EL34s) is now converted to a #183 and has become much more allive.

@ Hiderek: Your english is fine, bro! it is actually better than some for whom it is the first language! As far as the Sag switch, it is a basically a heavy duty switch with a large ceramic resistor mounted to it that sits across the center tap of the HT Leads to simulate having a tube rectifier instead of a solid state one. tube rectifiers tend to "Sag" and drop voltage a little when pushed which makes the amp sound "spongy" (think of an older tube amp and how they respond when pushed) Nik came up with the solution when i asked if i could have both a tube and solid state rectifier in my BM, but the power transfromer does not have a 5 volt tap.

As far as the Sovtek tubes go, I have to agree with bluesfenderman, i think my initial response was a bit of a honeymoon/crush phase, because now, even though i have the proper brightness, the are a bit harsh and not very warm. I have a pair of ANOS GE Long plate 12AX7's for V1 and V2 coming from KCA NOS Tubes, along with a CV4024 for the phase inverter spot, which come highly recommended for D style amps. I also have a pair TAD 6L6WGC tubes coming to swap out mt lil 25 watt NOS JAN Phillips 6L6WGB's which, while sweet sounding are not going to last long in the BM, even with the reduced plate voltage.I also will be picking up some TAD 6L6GC-STR long bottles and winged SED'S just to try em out.

I still plan on swapping out the bass pot, slope resistor,  possibly putting 3 different values on a 3 way switch, and adding some additional bright caps on all three volume controls on 3 way switches, just to have a little variety, and maybe adding a Local Negative Feedback Loop. Also my c-lator was ordered yesterday, which should help smooth things out and add some brightness.

The OD tone will smooth out over time as the amp burns in. Try playing an mp3 player with the volume turned down a bit with some smooth jazz in to the amp to help burn it in. also, remember that the gain from the clean channel affects that OD channel so if you dial the clean channel gain up and down, it can smooth out the OD or harsh it up, and the OD trimmer on the rear makes a big difference on the character of the OD.

Also, i am starting to look at the HRM OD tonestack a little differently. I don't want to rehash it here, but the thread i started on my thoughts on the OD tonestack are here--------> http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=3048.0

@bluesfendermanblues: I will have to try the JJ'ss in V1 & V2 and the Sovtek LPS as well! thanks for the input and advice, it is always welcome!!

IMHO the speaker for Bluesmaster amp is Celestion Gold... I also have G12-65 cab but really,... with Gold there is no contest.
I know Golds are pricy but once you try it out, there is no turning back.

These Dumble style amps are something else aren't they? Mine is approx. 6 months old and it surprises me every time... sometimes I hate it, sometimes I love it. Every now and then I fiddle round with the tone controls and end up with a different sound. I have been playing it more often and I now have the impression that the speakers (Celestion G12-65 Heritage) are (slowly) starting to burn in, in any way the amplifier seems to be sounding warmer and warmer though it's definitely not yet what I've heard on some clips on the internet.

>Bluesfendermanblues

Thank you for your advice. I had ordered Sovtek 12AX7WA and JJ EC803S 3 each right after I wrote the previous one. I am just curious to know how the sound will change with those little things. I will try your recommended preamp-tubes, too.

>plasticvonaband
Thank you for letting me know about the SAG switch and other detailed useful information about sound making, and also nice comment about my English ;D  I feel like taking off to a long journey to find the better tone...


General thoughts:
I am just wondering one thing...  It seem like many people are having the same problems or dissatisfaction about this amp's tone, and they are struggling to get better sound changing tubes or other little parts. Then, "Why Can't they make better tone or simply easy to operate amps?"  I am a musician, not an engineer :'(

Hmmm I think I don't agree with this statement.
I own an OTS and BM HRM and I prefer BM over OTS. It can be a bass heavy amp but that can be fixed... btw just as much as I'm trying to improve (read mod) the BM... I'm doing the same for OTS. ...and at the end of the day I still prefer BM

 +1 Mcinku, I own both non-HRM and my HRM BM and I think they are both exceptional amps in there own right. My BM is modded but I've heard a stock 100w BM in person and they sound great!. I had a guy over demo'ing a pedal and he said that my amp (a 100w BM) was one of the most touch responsive amps he'd ever played, that harmonics jumped out @ him.

Same here, no problems with the BM sounds, with no valve changes.
I have a BM and plain OTS, both stock. The BM is much better I think. It's true the BM is dark, but it only needs a Celestion Gold, and the treble and presence set high, especially if you run the Master volume high. I'd say that stock, with the original JJ valves, my BM is one of my top 3-4 favourite amps, and probably the one I play most. A very special amp.
All I want to change is to lower the PAB and reverse the deep switch.

My BM 50w is easily the best amp I've ever played through. I've never had a session with it that hasn't been fabulous. The low end boominess seems to be evening out a bit as it burns in - I've only had it for maybe 3 months, and don't have that much playing time on it yet. And there's no lack of high end certainly. The clean channel is a thing of wonder - yes, it's got a lot of the fender sound, but it's also got a huge amount of integrity, depth and dumble warmth. And the od channel is simply amazing - it just does the best lead sounds I've ever heard, and I really haven't tweaked the internal tone trimmers to my satisfaction yet.

Tubes - I'm starting to think I may have stumbled into a really good combination, partly by accident, but also by reading the various tube threads here. Nothing complicated - just Tungsol 12ax7's in v1-3, and a matched pair of JJ 6L6GC's for the power tubes.

I still haven't posted pictures of my completed amp, as the cabinet isn't quite done yet - I just got all the hardware together, and the box is built, but not finished yet, so it'll be another few weeks most likely.

I still need to make a new speaker cabinet - I'm leaning in the direction of a 2 x 12 in the style of the Hard Truckers JG-1, and am weighing my options for speaker choices. This is still off in the distance projectwise - I'm also planning on building a new guitar in celebration of my new amp (as if I need an excuse...).

I agree with all of you, my BM is the best amp i have ever played through, i don't want anyone to misunderstand and think i'm dissatisfied with it, i love it! i really enjoy how interactive all the tone controls are and how the OD can go from mild to wild. it is second only to my much loved and much missed blackface princeton reverb, but let's face it, by the time i got it was almost 30 years old and modded :) 99% of the time my BM amp is perfect, it is by far the warmest fullest sounding amp i have owned, and i have owned a ton of amps over the years, and every day it just gets better; there's just that 1% of the time that i wish it was a lil brighter, a lil less bassy, and the post od tonestack could be either easily adjusted or bypassed, that's all.

I am amazed to see that my comments caused such a sensation here. I am sorry if my words were thoughtless. I think I was too impatient about my new toy. I should have waited and seen how it grows at least using it for a year or so. Just like my Fender 65 Twin Reverb or Deluxe Reverb, I was expecting this Ceriatone stuff as a"ready to go" style amp. But I was wrong :-\ This one has so many switches and the control knobs that becomes many many factors to change the sound and they make sound making very complicated. Adding to that, I got to think of C-lator's settings, too. I am going take a deep breath and just have fun playing and puzzling with them.

By the way, does anyone know which position is this amps' flat tone setting? For example, Twin Reverb's is that Bass 0, mid 10, Treble 0. I wonder what's for HRM...

I am going to make my HRM BM debut at a live gig this weekend, I hope it will work fine there.

i think instead of all the tweaking and surgery i've been considering, i'm just gonna dial in the tone controls to a pleasing setting then use my old faithful Boss GE-7 to boost the brightness and dial some of the bass out when i want it. i really think like all the other have said that i've been overthinking this whole thing, i mean i'm supposed to enjoy this, right? :) cheers ya'll and happy monday!!

Gregg

The BM is a special amp, after 6 months, I kept it and discarded my Fuchs ODS - my recommended settings are:

turn all the controls to 12 o'clock (incl the OD trim)
then turn the treble and presence to  9/10
Turn bass to 3/10 - very important!!
Sounds great with strats
If you have a humbucker, pull the Vol to get it bright.

If you run the master vol at 3 o'clock, and the preamp vol at 9 o'clock, it runs cleaner, but a little darker, decide what you prefer

It sounds excellent with every guitar I own. Strats, Dark jazz archtops, LPs
If you run it through a dark speaker, it sounds poor - do not underestimate this - the BM needs the correct speaker, I prefer the Celestion Gold.
The Matchless 2x12 is good too - very bright.

btw, for anyone out there (not aimed at you Gregg) - with the BM you have entered into the territory of amps that are so good they make most FX pedals sound lame, and most Boss pedals come into this category, so for you Gregg, adding a GE-7 may damage the sound.
I have never bought a modern Boss pedal that did not spoil the sound of my good amps (incl GT10, RC50), I hope the older ones are better. I sold my old Boss pedals before I entered the boutique world (because they made my Ac10 Twin and Twin II sound lame)
You'll need to upgrade your pedals probably! Sorry! Or disconnect them.
Go to any store selling boutique amps and tell them you have a great amp, and tell them you want to try pedals that do not destroy the tone. Although it sounds like voodoo, they will know exactly what you mean, and have a shortlist: carl Martin, Way Huge, EHX Cathedral, TC delay, Xotic etc.

I just use a bit of Carl Martin delay and sometimes compression, more than that kills the tone for me.

FYI all Boss Pedals have a buffer in them. The buffer is in the signal even when the pedal is bypassed. I put any pedal with a buffer in a true bypass effects loop switcher device on my pedal board. Especially when I have one of my Delica fuzzes (based upon the old Dallas Arbiter fuzz face)on my board because boss pedal make the signal overly bright.


 So if I can recommend anything its to put your boss pedals in isolated true bypass effects loop switcher. A/B the Boss pedal in the signal to the regular signal from just your guitar straight to the amp and you'll see the difference I'm talking about.

@Tone Control @Greg: Thank you very much for the advice and insight, i always very much appreciate it! You are very much correct in that higher quality amps will show flaws in your equipment and in my case playing style ;) i put guitar down for a few years and i am getting all my muscle memory and technique back and it shows :) with your settings my strat sounds very nice indeed, however, my epi sheraton sounds either very dark or very twangy, which i think reflects more on the fact that even though it is one of the "better" korean made epis, the pickups and running gear are crap and the BM only magnifies it.

I have been playing around literally all day with different guitars, speakers, and pedals through the amp, and yes, even though the GE-7 added some nice sparkle, what it took away outweighed it, as did my tubescreamer, which i have never been to fond of anyway. i have my pedal board reduced to my dyna comp, my way huge swollen pickle fuzz, and my boosta grande clean boost, and the sound is much improved. my nos pre amp, tad power amp tubes, and speakers will be here tomorrow, but i still have no cab :( Gabkits is making me a 2x12 for the amp, and i have no idea when it will be done, what a drag.

Tone Control and others, do you use a c-lator on your BM? I have one on order, and i know alot of people swear by em and they seem to really smooth out and balance the BM out; do you find this to be true.

sorry for the rambling post, but thanks very much for the advice!!

 IMHO YES, YES, and YES. When my whole rig is together its like magic.

My rig:
 
Mill Creek HRM BM preamp
or
Quinn 183' non-HRM preamp

In to a:

Mill Creek D-lator
 (w/ a T.C. M300 in the loop)

Back in to the BM's 100w power amp


Using either a:
 ported 2x12 w/ EvM's
 ported 2x12 with Celestion g65's
 or a ported 1x12 with an Eminence Texas heat


Each cab has there place for different applications.

I tried a k-lator. It definitely lets you use FX in the loop without the usual treble loss.
I didn't like it as an amp-add-on, but I like to run amps quite loud anyway, and love the tone of the BM as-is. Usually I run the OD to be only a little grittier than the clean (which is just compressing a little the way I set up), so I am probably not the best candidate for a k-lator or c-lator anyway. The BM sounds fine without one, and as many have learnt, it's hardly simple to dial in the best tones when moving to a d-style amp the first time.

Cheers
Tone

The ANOS GE Long Plates sound beautiful in the HRM BM!!! I originally had A GE Long Plate in V1, A JJ in V2, and the Mullard CV 4024 in V3 I also installed TAD 6L6WGC-STR's in V4 & V5. With the JJ in V2, there was a ton of gain available, but it was a bit harsh and grainy. I put the other GE Long Plate and V2, and voila! Nice warm full overdrive!! I biased the Power tubes to 40 mA and i have to say the amp is very balanced now. Nice and bright, but not too bright, very warm, and "3D" as they say with a lot of depth, and the OD tone is outstanding. The Weber 1265 alnico pre-rolas are a perfect match for this amp... i am very pleased!

Nice to hear you found your tone... but man I'm trying to stay away from those NOS tubes.
Once you start buying those it can become really expensive.
  :P

Yes it can :) i'm going to buy a couple more sets to have on hand just in case. These two were pulled from a mighty wurlitzer apparently. How cool is that?

Man now I feel sorry for that wurlitzer...
 ;D