Ceriatone Forum

So, even though it appears alot of guys/gals have flown the coop here since Nik stopped selling kits I thought i would give a little update on my Bluesmaster, specifically on the speaker choice. I originally had Weber AlNiCo 1265's installed, and they are pretty nice speakers, but not a great match for the Bluesmaster. I originally ordered them based on some recommendations from this forum and a few other sources, as they are a popular choice for the OTS series. The problem is that the Bluesmaster's tone stack is very similar to Blackface Fenders, and, as such along with having a nice high end and mid range section it also has a very large bass response. It's not something we think about very much, but Leo did design his amps to go along with his guitars, the strats and teles, and so the amps needed more bass response to make up for the guitars' lower bass output.

The 1265's, as i said were very warm, and had nice high end, and were not overly dark, as i had feared, but they did not take the bass output from the Bluesmaster well at all. Even at low volume and low bass settings the bass response was loose and flabby, and i just couldn't get used to it. At first i tought they just needed to break in some more, so i kept them in and kept gigging with them, but as they opened up, they got warmer and brighter, but the bass response never really developed. I thought maybe this was just how AlNiCo's are (these were my first AlNiCo speakers), but after doing some reading, and emailng weber, it turns out the bass response is more of a result of cone construction than magnet design.

Reluctantly, I pulled the Webers out, and dropped two of my 20 year old Eminience Legend G1's in there. I had 4 in my 4X12 cab that i used to use with my Sovtek and i always thought they were pretty good drivers. To my surprise, the amp really came to life. The bass response on those old speakers is nice and tight and well defined, and the mids and highs are every bit as good if not better than the Webers. The Blackface quality of the speakers REALLY shines through now. I am very impressed. I can even turn my bass control up past 3 now, and it stays nice and tight and well controlled.

I think the closest thing Eminience to them now is the 1258, so i may look into a pair of those to replace my 20 year old ones, as i am afraid they may go at any time, as the cones are pretty dry and flimsy and may blow any time. I'm thinking either those or the Weber 12F150's.

In short, if you have a Bluesmaster, and you are not happy with the low end response, try a more American type speaker, it seems the British style, while awesome in the mid's and high's, just don't stand up to the bass response that the amp is capable of.

Hope this helps!

Gregg

I am a new Bluesmaster (and D style amp) owner (100w HRM) and have been going through a speaker listening phase as well.  I'm fortunate enough to have a bunch of 12's laying around and access to more through friends who are willing to lend me a speaker for a few days to check out.

My amp came with a cabinet with 2 Two Rock speakers.  These are good, but I feel a little muted in the high end.  What I do like is the Eminence C-rex.  I settled on a combination of a C-rex and a Canis Major (which is an alnico version of the C-rex).

The bass response of this amp is very different than the Blackface fender I have been gigging for the last decade.  I've always been a Fender guy, but this amp is like a Fender on steroids.  It does blackface, but with more of everything.   The bottom end response of this amp can get out of control quick if you put the bass knob up to 5 or more.   

I have also tried a combo of a C-rex and a Two Rock 1265 which was pretty good (but not as good as the Crex/Canis Major).  I haven't gigged that combination yet, though. 

I want to try an Eminence Red Fang in combination with the Crex or the Two Rock.  We'll see how that goes. 

If I get the chance i will post clips from gigs with different speakers- recordings don't lie (much, anyway) and give me a fairly honest answer of what my rig sounds like at 25ft or so. 

Finally- thank you for the report on the Weber 1265- I was looking at that speaker as a possibility to mix with one that I already have.  Farty bass is not one of the things I look for, though. 

Apologies if i hijacked (especially for a first post)- but I've been going through the same thing you are with speakers.

No Apologies Needed :) I agree it is like a Blackface on steroids. I was playing with a little more last night, and with the old eminence speakers in,there my Dano i can crank the bass right on up with no problem (surprise surprise) but with the Les Paul it can get boomy and overwhelmig real quick (again surprise surprise).

I may switch the power tubes out again to the JAN 6L6WGB's to get a little lower bass response for tonight's little blues jam and see how it goes. I should just shut up and play, but that's been hard for me to do lately ;)

I look forward to hearing your clips

Good info in this thread.  I've got a Bluesmaster 100W, I tried a number of different speakers that I have on hand:

Weber Michigan - Unimpressed.  I love this speaker in a DRRI for handling really clean jazzy sounds tight bass but in the Bluesmaster totally unimpressive.  I was surprised.

Eminence Man O'War - Not bad but not good either.  I love this speaker in an 18 Watt clone.  Does the AC/DC thing with little effort.

Celestion g12t-75 - Similar experience to the Man O'War, except IMHO the Man O'War does the AC/DC thing much better.

Eminence CRex - Loved it.  The cleans sound great lots of definition and the overdrive shines.  No mud.

Eminence Tonespotter - See Crex.

I have both the CRex and the Tonespotter together in a 2X12.  Would love to throw a Celestion Gold or G1265 in the mix to see how they would work with the CRex or Tonespotter.

Interested in hearing more opinions

Does the C-Rex allow the brightness to come through as well? I know that the hemp cones are known for "taming harsh treble" is why I ask. I've pretty much resigned my self to the fact that my LP will be a little muddy until i swap the pups out, but if I throw I GE-7 in front of the amp I can get some nice highs out of it, but I found out last night that even with the eminence drivers I have in there now the bass can get a little farty with the LP, but the highs and mids are there. So will the cannabis retain the mids and highs without being farty in the Bluesmaster?

Edited. Damn autocorrect

I mainly play a LP Traditional Plus with stock  57 Classics.  Sounds great through the CRex/Tonespotter setup.  Not farty at all, no issues.  My current clean setting on the amp are Treble - 5, Middle - 3, Bass - 1.  I can run the Bass on 10 without any farting out.

Best I heard so far is BM50 + Celestion Gold

I will try my Legend 1258 with it soon.
Choice may depend on how clean you play it
I set the preamp vol low, master vol high

Thanks, Tone. I may have to try the Gold one day. especially now because,,,,

What a difference a few hours and some tube and speaker swaps can make!!! I'm starting to think I am going nuts! On a hunch a swapped out the ANOS GE Long Plate 12AX7's  I had in V1 & V2, for some JJ's and instantly the amp brightened and tightened up quite a bit, so my curiosity was raised greatly, so i swapped the Weber 1265's back in and holy cow!! that's all i can say!  :chairdance: It seems all the looseness and fartiness i was experiencing were coming from the amp itself! I can definitely say that THIS is what i was looking for all along! It seems those Long Plates were just a bit too warm and dark for the Bluesmaster circuit and may have been the source of some of my woes all along! The clean channel is alot fuller and lush, and all the brightness is there, and the bass is nice and tight as well.

I cranked up the clean channel to around 8 out of 10 to drive the power section and was greeted with a beautiful power tube saturation overdrive sound and the Webers compressed and sang beautifully! All this from the supposedly "crappy" JJ's! I still have a Long Plate in the V3 as i swapped a few in and out of there, and it was the clear winner in that spot. I can't wait to see how the Celestion Gold will sound paired up with the Weber 1265 i'm stoked!

In short, as i said before, i think the Weber 1265 Alnico is a great speaker, but before i couldn't say it was a great match for the Bluesmaster, but now, I can safely say with the proper tube compliment and setup, they are a perfect match!! And they are no longer for sale :) Sorry!

until I got the Celestion Gold, I thought of selling the BM50, I preferred the Fuchs ODS until that point.
It's certainly worth switching tubes and speakers before discarding an amp that is known to be popular

Absolutely!!! I had no plans to sell the amp, I was going to find the combination that worked I'd it killed me :)

Sorry again, but you are only overdriving the preamp turning up the first volume unless you crank the master too (or output of C-lator if you use one).
In amps that sound good with JJ's they have a good reputation (I've used them in dozens of amps), my 100W HRM had a full set for 2 and 1/2 years of constant gigging and sessions and they still test and sound great, only found it out after replacing with Winged "C" and other pre tubes... thought I would hear more output, better tone. Now the JJ's are a great spare set.


"I cranked up the clean channel to around 8 out of 10 to drive the power section and was greeted with a beautiful power tube saturation overdrive sound and the Webers compressed and sang beautifully! All this from the supposedly "crappy" JJ's!"

Yeah, on the BM the Clean and OD channel each have their own master. I cranked the clean's master up and drove the power section. ;) 

The Crex is not a dark speaker at all.  The treble is not muted, but it is never harsh.  Definately check this speaker out- it is very good at doing American tones.

The Lil Buddy (the 10" version of a Crex) on the other hand is a very dark speaker.  So I guess there is more at work than just the hemp cone.  I haven't tried Tone Tubby speakers, but i would be interested to see what they're all about (except I don't have unlimited $$$!).

When I finish building my BM 50 I plan on trying these speakers:

EVM12L
Eminence RW&B
Eminence Red Fang

I'm thinking the EVM12L or the RW&B will sound the best but we'll see.

I've heard nothing but great things about the EVM's. The only reason I haven't tried them is due to price.

I used 2 vintage  EvM12L's (Mesa labeled from the 80's) for the 1st year with a Bluesmaster and switched to Celestion G1265's because the Ev's had almost too much Bottom end bass response not to mention the extreme weight with a 2x12 cab.

 After a while I dug the sound of the G1265's (and still do) but bought a second cab and put a g1265 and an Eminence Texas Heat in it, this config seems to have a great balance with articulate Mids and highs, not overly bright like the Ev's. Although with non-HRM Skyliner type amps I just prefer g1265's.

  Believe it or not the sound of the Ev's and the G1265's is not that different, headroom and efficiency is the only big difference IMO. I play extremely loud mic'd and the Ev's don't have the same feedback quality's as the g1265's, I'd say that the Ev's have too much headroom for my liking. This is all IMHO though, too many variable's to consider, everybody has there own preference.

tyes EVM12's are expensive... but i reckon you will save in the long run. by the tme you have stuffed about trying all the others... you will ultimately still wonder about the EV.

its an excellent speaker, with a super solid bottom end that will take everything the amp throws at it. its also far more sentive which means more dB's per watt.

the 1265 is a good speaker, but its not an EV

My (as usual) unusual $.02...

New Cab Day, New Speakers Day soon...

This...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130563019861?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

With these...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170682321019?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I really really like the two cabs I am using with my C-tone 50w HRM+C-lator and C-tone/Marsh OTS fsx-50 Overlord...a 2/12 semi closed back stuffed with JBL G125's, and an old possibly Gibson semi closed back 1/15 housing a vintage Jensen Vibranto, both setups are fat and lush, no ice pick.  The JBL's in their cab are brighter on top.  I also have a pre EVM 12s by Altec Lansing, the ER 12s, same frame and cone as the EV unit, liked the tight and big bottom end, but found it to be a bit too bright on top sitting in a Bedrock 651 1/12 50w combo... 

But I have been jonesing to try a pair of Altec types, and having a soft spot for vintage alnico drivers, I thought I'd give these redone 600b's a try.  Originally they were rated for around 30 watts apiece, they predate the 417 series of alnico speakers that HAD and Carlos Santana liked.  I can't post clips, but will describe how they do once they arrive and I give them some break in time in the new cab.  This eBay seller re-does up a lot of one off speakers for guitar, most I have seen of his listed on eBay are done up in hemp.  I like the fact that he is willing to take back if the buyer doesn't like them, know any of the big mfg's that do that?

Tone report time...

The speakers finally arrived, I rear mounted them in this cab.  Using my (vintage tubed) 50w HRM w/ neg feedback lifted, 16 ohm output setting, huge, fat, smooth, oozy, with gorgeous harmonic bloom.  No bark with these.  You don't need any high pf cables between the c-lator and amp with this setup, you hear the highs but they are very smooth.  No bottom end flab, but the bottom is very big in this higher than normal volume cab, no need to use the deep switch.  At window rattling loudness tones are similar to small room volumes, very linear volume/tones relationship.  These speakers in this cab are darker than I expected, but the harmonic bloom on the long notes is truly spectacular, all strings, and all over the neck.  The cab build quality was not especially wonderful, but for the price what to expect?  This eBay seller does up some pretty Frankenstein-ly speaker recones, not a herd follower.  Does customs too.  Great packing job. 

Me likey lots...

end hijack... ;)

very cool!!!! i have thought about maybe doin the eminence cannabis rex and cannabis minor combo at some point, but for now i am VERY hapy with the Webers, now that i have the rest of the amp tuned properly. I'll update that in the new valves thread ;) here----->http://ceriatoneforum.com/index.php?topic=3859.0

So, I emailed eminence about the 12698 G1's that i have had since the mid 90's and i recently swapped back into the BM that i really like and found out something interesting. I thought that maybe they were close to the Legend 1258's or 1218's but I got this response:


Hi Gregory,
 
12698 was a custom design that we manufactured to our customer's specifications.  The closest stock model we offer is the Delta-12A.
 
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Delta_12A
 
 
Regards,
 

Anthony Lucas | Sr. ab Tech
Eminence Speaker LLC>
 P.O. Box 360
 838 Mulberry Pike
 Eminence, KY 40019


Now, the Delta 12A is very similar to the Delta Pro 12A which as some of you may know was used as a substitute foe the EV-12L when they went out of production. The specs between the two are quite similar, with somewhat flat, neutral, and uncolored response. The Pro as a larger magnet similiar to the EV and a lil deeper response, and has been said to be "less sterile" than the EV.

The Delta 12A is $56 US and the The Delta Pro 12A is about $120 US

Certainly food for thought

Gregg