Ceriatone Forum

Hey guys.  I didn't even realize this forum existed until jzucker turned me onto it this afternoon.  Its really cool to see a resource like this available for the great amps Nik makes.

Jack mentioned there has been some forum interest in my Klein-ulator circuit, and I thought I'd give you all a little background on it.  So, grab a coffee, beer, water, whatever, and take a gander.  :)

When I was waiting last spring for my Brown Note D'Lite kit to ship, I realized that I wanted a loop buffer but I didn't want to go to the trouble of building a tube Dumble-ator.  I started to explore my options, and quickly found there aren't many out there (if any) that did what I wanted.  I didn't want it to be bogged down in features, I didn't want to spend a lot of money...etc.  I just wanted a unit that would sound good and do its job.

I sat down and started to list everything I wanted, and it looked like a JFET adaptation of the Dumble-ator would offer the best fit.  I sketched a few things out, and eventually I came up with something that I was intrigued by enough to build.  I was happy, but I knew it could be better.  This is the version that I've posted on the Brown Note forum and the Amp Garage forum. 

I'm sure some may ask "why not tube?", and that's a viable question.  But, I ask in response "what do tubes do best?".  For me, they distort, add harmonic complexity, add subtle compression, and smooth out the top end.  They have some great performance characteristics too, but I won't get into the technical stuff.  Anyways, I didn't want the unit to distort...but harmonics, VERY slight compression, and smoothing all sounded nice to me.  I have incorporated each of those characteristics, the best I could, into this last version of the Klein-ulator.

Since then (maybe for the last 8 months or so?) I've been tweaking the circuit.  My biggest step forward was when I actually build a tube Dumble-ator this winter (with the gracious help and transformer from Brandon at Bludotone).  I finally had a benchmark to compare to.  Some 4 months later, I now have a design that I can honestly say sounds 99% identical (to my very humble ears) to my tube unit, with the added benefit of lower noise.

I'm wrestling with how to handle the design, though.  I'm a full-time student, and I definitely did not design this with the intention of making some money.  However, I've put a lot of time into its design (there is nothing like it anywhere, at least that I'm aware of), and its become more "personal" than I'd anticipated...if that makes any sense. 

I would love to make the unit for people in small numbers, but I'd have to make sure that 1) they would realize I couldn't start until the summer, 2) I'm a one-man show and face all the related obstacles a priori, 3) everything, from making the Printed Circuit Board, to drilling the enclosure would be done by hand.

However, I'm considering making the most current design 100% public domain, particularly in the spirit of gentlemen like those at runoffgroove, Gil Ayan, "Allymney", etc.  However, I'd hate to do that and regret it instantly.

So, I'm looking to you guys....  For advice, for input, for what the interest level in the Klein-ulator is.  Please reply and let me know what you think.  It would be most appreciated.

For what its worth, the version I made for Jack Zucker (thanks again, Jack!) has these features:
- 1W carbon film resistors
- Panasonic ECQ polyester film capacitors
- Nichicon Muse electrolytic capacitors
- Cliff jacks
- Mountain switches
- Alpha potentiometers
- Teflon-coated, shielded wire in the signal path for lowest possible noise

- Adjustable Send (signal to effect), Return (signal from effect), and Recovery (signal to power amp) levels
- Bright I and Bright II switches (power is switchable, not "always on", too)
- Serial signal routing (input, send, return, output jacks)
- Supplied by a standard "Boss style" 9V adapter

Here's pics of the one that's en route to jzucker.

Hey Kleinm,

Good to see you drop by and great to see the result of all those months of work since the early days on the Brownnote D'Lite forum.  Interesting enough, I was just checking earlier today to see if Moss had his "mossleator"..lol.. ready to go, or not.  I'd be very interested in one of yours, actually.  Are you offering it as a complete build or a kit?  I followed your threads on the build and would be pretty easy to put together.     I've been meaning to build a dumleator but I hate sourcing the parts.  Let us know what kind of pricing structure you have in mind.  Personally, I'd be interested in a "bag-o-bits" an eyelet board(s), current schemo and layout, and drill my own chassis....like I said, I hate finding parts.

Cheers,

ChrisL  AKA   "candh" everywhere else

I can't wait to get mine. I'm totally psyched about it. Thanks so much Mike.

Hey Chris.  As of right now, I have no plans to offer it as a kit.  There are three options that are most appealing to me - 1) keeping it to myself and selling it as a finished product, 2) bartering with Nik or Moss to make the design theirs, 3) making the design 100% public domain.

If I choose #3, I'll also include a BOM that you can import directly into Mouser's BOM tool. 

Its en route via USPS Priority Mail.  It and Aum should arrive late this week or early next week.  As I mentioned in the email, you might try settings set like shown in the pictures.

I hope you enjoy it, and keep me posted!

Sorry for calling you Mark!

LOL!  No worries man.  I've been called worse names.

PM sent.

PM sent.

Obviously, you are the only one who can make the final marketing decision. You may want to try to get an idea of the demand for the device before choosing. For example, how many Overtones has Nik shipped, and what is projected demand? Out of those, any way to guesstimate how many would want a klein'lator? Also, do you think Brownote users or other D stylists would be interested? I think the uber-snobs would only go with a tube unit, but the Overtone does not really pitch to that crowd. The fact that you made it a non-rack unit in my mind would increase it's appeal.  After ballparking demand, decide if you could meet it on your own. If not, can you live with a long wait list? If the wait list gets too long, it's likely the unit would get copied and other makers would pop up.

Microsoft did pretty well with licensing, you may want to give it a try :)

PM sent.

Hey Sparky.  Thanks for the advice.  You bring up some excellent points that are worth considering.  I really appreciate you taking the time to provide your input.

I'll keep you guys posted.  Right now, Nik and I are casually talking about options.

PMs replied.  Thanks guys!

Sounds very cool. Would be interested in one as purchase.

JT

JT - thanks, and cool!  Nik and I are still discussing how we can get these out there.  So far, I'm VERY excited!

Everyone, thanks so much for your interest and support!
- mk

Still in the process of saving for an OTS, but once I get one, would want something of this type. If you can get something together with Nik it would obviously take away from you any responsibility over warranty etc...

In theory could it be built into the amp?

Just got my kleinulator. It's !@#$! amazing! Not only does it make the pedals sound "right" but it allows you to add some gain in the loop which turns out to make the sound of the amp all that much more amazing. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!!!

what a difference with the kleinulator

www.sheetsofsound.net/demos/ceriatone10-strat.mp3

(http://www.sheetsofsound.net/images/kleinulator.jpg)

Hey Jack

That latest strat clip is sensational!!  One thing I'm not sure of - does the Kleinulator improve the sound of the amp even when the effects aren't engaged?  To me that strat clip sounds way better than your initial 'dry' clips (or maybe it is just getting the OTS dialled in?).

Well sweet!!!!  I'm glad you like it, man!  Thanks for sharing the clip.  Fantastic tone and playing.  Its truly an inspiration to hear you play.  Hearing my Klein-ulator in such great hands is icing on the cake.   8)

I'll chime in here, and Jack can add his input.

The Klein-ulator, like the Dumble-ator, intentionally colors the tone (albeit subtly) when in the loop.  I wired the Klein-ulator so you can just plug it into the amplifier's loop with nothing in the Klein-ulator's loop.  You get a smoothing of the high-end, and a little fattening of the lower-midrange.  The extra gain right before the PI just makes the amplifier sing.

Is there any possibility that this could be fitted into the OTS cab, possibly as part of a modified back panel or similar. To keep it all neatly enclosed in the same box would be really good. The mini-toggle switches would need a rethink, they would be very vulnerable.

It'd be better to have it built right in.  ;D

Agreed, for new builds, but I guess most current owners wouldn't want to start drilling holes in the chassis.

I'm working on a version right now that could be powered from the amps PS and mount on the rear of the chassis.  As mentioned, some of the features would be eliminated...but I'm working on something to make it worthwhile.

That'd be great! Let me know if you need a beta tester!

Will do.  I think it can be done without sacrificing the voicing and response of the regular design.  Getting V+ from the amp's PS should be simple math.  *famous last words*

Pardon my ignorance but can I order a Kleinulator to ship to the UK - I have a Paypal account etc...?

Cheers!

Would the Klein-ulator fit into a single rack mount housing?

Hi! 

You can contact Nik directly about ordering a Klein-ulator.  He will also be producing these, which is quite cool.  I believe he'll start production in the next few weeks.

Thanks for the interest!
- mk

Yep!  It'd be quite doable, actually.

any news on the prodction of the Klenulator? 19 inch rack version. Built in version etc etc?

I've emailed both Nik and Mike, with regards to building my own rack version of it from the standard unit and, whilst I obviously can't speak on their behalf,  neither has mentioned any plans to produce a rack mounted version...though as with all things I suppose if demand is there then Nik might consider doing something, but I'd bet that most people would be happy with the stand-alone unit.

First, let me apologize for being so absent lately.  I'm in the middle of finals week, and I just don't have much time to keep track of this.  I'm very, very sorry!

I believe Nik is getting close to start production. 

As far as a rack version, is completely possible.  I'm not sure if Nik will release that or not.  If he doesn't, I can do a custom one.

The built in version is still on the drawing board, but also still planned.

I hope this helps!

At this point, I don't believe that Nik is going to do a rackmount version right away.  However, he's a smart businessman and if the demand is high he'll likely acquiesce. 

I can do a custom rackmount version for those interested.  Feel free to contact me directly for more information.

Thanks again for all the interest and support guys!

OK
I'm not quite sure what my rig will look like. I have bought a G-sharp for rever/chorus and delay so I guess I'm stuck with a small rack, but not quite sure. Coyld you give me an estimate (PM) on the price of a rack version please?

Thanks
Steven

John Mayer has IMHO a nice arrangement, he has a vertical 2x12" cab, 2U rack unit housing a 1U Dumbleator and a 1U Dumble Solid State Overdrive then his Two Rock head on top of that. That's the arrangement I plan on going for when I finally get my Overtone ordered...

Mike, if you could let me know the price for a Custom Rackmount unit as I would be interested for sure.

Ditto for the rack jobby.

Thanks

Hey guy's, i'm following your discussions for a certain period of time now.
Thanks for all the input, very interesting, as i think the loop is the weak point (?) of the Overtone, for the things i have in mind.
Would be nice to know if Nik is willing to build it into the Overtone now ?
thanks

....or at least offer it as a stand-alone unit - nicely finished like the one made by Mike for Jack Zucker.

Mike...i would definitely be interested in one like you made for Jack. Whats the possibility of grabbing one from you and the cost? I dont mind waiting as I have waited weeks for the OTS and finally received the shipping notice. Let me know.

Thanks!

Mike, absolutely the same applies to me as well...may I have an offer from you, too ?

Many thanks
Mike (from Zurich, Switzerland)

Wat happens if you put an effect after the Kleinulator instead of in the fx loop?

I just put a mail to Nik, to shed some light on this subject. Will keep you posted.

Sorry for the delay, I'm out of town teaching at a science camp for the entire week.  I'll reply to your questions once I have a break this week, or when I return home.

In the meantime, feel free to contact Nik, as I believe he's nearing release of the Klein-ulator.

Thanks for your patience!

Yes, klein-ulator can be ordered at Nik, as a separate device/stand alone.
Not intergrated in the Overtone.
Price about 120 usd up

Also half powerswitch on Overtone 100 w, is possible as a mod.

I think many of you guy's are happy now.