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Author Topic: First try building a JTM45. It blows the 500mA Fuse!  (Read 31526 times)
Findeton
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« on: September 19, 2009, 01:12:08 PM »

Hi, I'm trying to build a JTM45 using the Ceriatone transformers. I'm used to building circuits, although I had never built circuits using valves. Instead of a 6.3V indicator, I use an Amber lamp. I connect one end to the 120V OT wire and the other end to the 0V wire next to the 120V one, this is the only difference with the schematics of ceriatone. I wired the amp using the schematics of ceriatone.com and I'm using the pdf file to power up the amp, testing point to point before installing each tube . The problem comes when I put the first tube, GZ34. The 500mA fuse is then blown and I measure 0 volts DC on the stand-by switch, when (according to this, page 20, point D) I should measure 325V DC. I've been re-cheking the whole circuit and I can't find any mistake. I'm checking everything again but perhaps I'm lucky and someone here can help me.

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Findeton
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2009, 04:14:50 PM »

I mean, with only the GZ3 tube installed, the power switch ON and the standby switch OFF (standby mode), the 500mA fuse blows after about 10 seconds. I don't know if it helps, but I measure 42 ohms DC between the 350V (high voltage)  ends and their common (0V) end.  Is that OK? Or it's that what's blowing all the fuses I have?  Undecided  I mean, while the fuse is not blown, I actually measure 350V between he terminals and the common, and 42 ohms DC is gonna be  much more in AC.

Perhaps it's something I've connected incorrectly, but I've been unable to locate any errors... Other option would be a bad GZ34.
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wyatt
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 06:30:15 AM »

I would guess it's in either the rectifier wiring or the standby switch wiring.  Though the B+ could be shorting elsewhere. 

Make sure your diodes on the rectifier tube are in the right polarity orientation.
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Findeton
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 09:38:10 AM »

I would guess it's in either the rectifier wiring or the standby switch wiring.  Though the B+ could be shorting elsewhere. 

Make sure your diodes on the rectifier tube are in the right polarity orientation.

Well, I hope it's the rectifier wiring! I checked and it looks like the standby switch is OK. Talking about the rectifier's diodes... I used the schematic that uses no diodes. I guessed that would be fine, as it's not used neither in this schematic nor in metroamp's manual.

But now you mentioned it, should I use those diodes? I thought the valve rectifier already worked as a diode rectifier. Oh, I also wanted to ask if it's normal to measure about 0.4 ohms between pins 2 and 8 of the GZ34 valve rectifier.

Anyway the amp is at my parent's house so I won't be able to check this until this weekend. And this time I'll be using a lightbulb current limiter.
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cmoore
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 04:19:04 AM »

As wyatt says, it is probably a wiring mistake in those areas.    Double check everything very thoroughly.
As far as extra diodes..... are you talking about the 0.01uf snubber caps on Pin 4 and 6 of the rectifier tube?   Those are just a in-rush protection device.   A modern day upgrade you might say.   Not crucial, but a good safety to have, just in case.
What you see between Pin 2 and 8 is normal.   There should be continuity there.
Good Luck
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Findeton
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 12:36:21 PM »

As wyatt says, it is probably a wiring mistake in those areas.    Double check everything very thoroughly.
As far as extra diodes..... are you talking about the 0.01uf snubber caps on Pin 4 and 6 of the rectifier tube?   Those are just a in-rush protection device.   A modern day upgrade you might say.   Not crucial, but a good safety to have, just in case.
What you see between Pin 2 and 8 is normal.   There should be continuity there.
Good Luck


Here (ceriatone.com) you can see that the rectifier tube has 2 diodes (and also the 0.01uf cap):



But, for example, on the layout found in this thread (ceriatoneforum.com) or the layout found at metroamp.com, you can see there are no diodes there:




I also have other question: On the jtm45 step-by-step metroamp instructions , inside the testing part, it says that if I only connect the GZ34, with the standby switch OFF and the power switch ON, I should measure about 325V DC on one side of the standby switch... that must be the side connected to the rectifier (pin 8 ), right? Therefore, if I don't see those 325V DC I can assume it's not the big caps what's failing, right?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 12:39:53 PM by Findeton » Logged
cmoore
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 01:24:08 PM »

This is getting a little confusing.....
The cap/diode situation on the rectifier tube is a modern day upgrade.   Metro does not show it because it was not original to the 1962 JTM-45.    Whether you use it or not will have no effect on you amp, assuming they are properly connected.    If you are having problems, I would disconnect them for now.   If you email Ceriatone, Nik will explain their purpose to you.
To clarify, when a SB Switch is "OFF" the amp is in normal operating mode.   When the SB Switch is "ON", your amp is not passing signal because there is no HV to the plates.  Regardless of that terminology, you should see HV on the SB switch where it is connected to Pin 8.   You say 325V.  That is assuming you are measuring across an open switch, or if the switch is closed the reference would be to ground.   If you are measuring between Pin 8 and the first leg of the SB Switch, the reading will be zero, or close to zero volts.
What reading are you getting on the SB Switch?
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Findeton
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 02:21:18 PM »

This is getting a little confusing.....
[...]
To clarify, when a SB Switch is "OFF" the amp is in normal operating mode.   When the SB Switch is "ON", your amp is not passing signal because there is no HV to the plates.  Regardless of that terminology, you should see HV on the SB switch where it is connected to Pin 8.   You say 325V.  That is assuming you are measuring across an open switch, or if the switch is closed the reference would be to ground.   If you are measuring between Pin 8 and the first leg of the SB Switch, the reading will be zero, or close to zero volts.
What reading are you getting on the SB Switch?

Well, it's confusing, but what I meant is that (according to metroamp's manual), if the standby switch is open, I should read about 325V DC between one leg of the standby switch and ground and what I remember is reading 0V DC... and after about 20 secs the amp blows the 500mA fuse. I'll make more measures this weekend (because the amp is at my parent's house).

Oh, and I didn't say it before but: Thank you all for your help!! Really!
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cmoore
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 10:54:38 PM »

I assume you are using the correct voltage for your country....
If you are measuring the SB Switch when it is open, and there is 0 volts on either post of the switch, that is the same as going direct to Pin 8 of the rectifier.   
So, you are saying there is no voltage on Pin 8 of the rectifier tube?
Also, does the 500 MA fuse blow while the SB Switch is open?
You either have a bad GZ34 or you have something wired incorrectly.
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Findeton
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 01:17:10 PM »

I assume you are using the correct voltage for your country....

I believe so (230V for Europe). L goes to the 2A fuse, then to the power switch and finally to the 230V transformer's wire.

If you are measuring the SB Switch when it is open, and there is 0 volts on either post of the switch, that is the same as going direct to Pin 8 of the rectifier.   
So, you are saying there is no voltage on Pin 8 of the rectifier tube?

There's 5V AC between pins 8 and 2. And 0V DC between pin 8 and ground.

Also, does the 500 MA fuse blow while the SB Switch is open?

Yes.

You either have a bad GZ34 or you have something wired incorrectly.

Or the 5 or 0 from the transformer are shorted to ground, but it's not the case. Having checked everything thrice, I kind of figured I had a bad GZ34, so I bought a new one. Tomorrow I'll go to my parent's to make some measures and recheck everything, and I'll try the new GZ34 whenever it arrives.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 06:21:57 AM by Findeton » Logged
cmoore
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 02:03:53 AM »

Well this has been a long one.   Let us know what happens with the new Recto!!!!!
Good Luck
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Findeton
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« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2009, 12:31:35 PM »

In the transformer, E is ground, which is connected to the E of the mains plug, and to the "ground" called 0 of HV(350V) and to the "ground" of the heaters(3.15V). But the 5V wire and it's "ground" 0V are not connected to E, the question is: is it normal to measure about 0.4 ohms (and the tester is not realiable at those scales, but it certainly is less than 1 ohm) between any of those 2 wires (the 5V and it's "ground" 0 of the PT) and E? If it's not, then the problem is there, a short in the PT.

I've done some measures (this time with the lightbulb current limiter) and, just like metroamp's manual says, with only the rectifier valve, I measure about -45V DC between pin 5 of V4 and V5 and ground. I measure 0V DC between pin 8 of the rectifier and ground (when I should measure about 325V DC). I also measure 220V AC (it should be about 350V AC but that's because of the lightbulb current limiter) and about 80V DC between the ends of the 220K resistor connected to the diode. 80V DC and 220V AC through a 220k resistor amounts to only about 1mA, so I guess it's not there where the amp is wasting all the power that makes the 500mA fuse blow without a current limiter.

I put a 100ohm resistor between pin 8 of the rectifier valve and the 5V wire of the PT. The result was that the lightbulb limiter wasn't lighting strong anymore and that there was 5V AC between then ends of the resistor, but I measured 0V DC between both  ends of the resistor  and ground and also  between pin 2 and ground. I think it's logical to measure 0V DC between pins 2 and 8 with the 100ohm resistor at pin 8 because there's also 0V AC between pins 2 and 8, the 5V AC produced by the PT are disipated through the resistor. As it appears, the resistor is limiting the current that passes through pin 8, which is much bigger than it should when I don't put the resistor. But what is generating that much current? Is it created by a short in the PT or the PT is fine and it's caused by a bad rectifier tube?

We'll see about that when I receive the new tube, or if you tell me whether it's OK or notto measure less than 1ohm between the 5V wires and E. Until that, you are welcome share your thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 12:44:46 PM by Findeton » Logged
cmoore
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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2009, 06:33:00 PM »

   What if you measure from Pin 8 to the bare chassis or any other ground connection?   0.4 ohms is the same as 100% continuity.   Is it possible that your rectifier socket is grounded?   Maybe a solder bridge between Pin 8 and the chassis.   Can you desolder the 5.0V wires from the Recto Socket and measure each of those wires to ground.   I hate to think your brand new PT is shorted.   It happens, but not very often.
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Findeton
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« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2009, 11:40:00 PM »

   What if you measure from Pin 8 to the bare chassis or any other ground connection?   0.4 ohms is the same as 100% continuity.   Is it possible that your rectifier socket is grounded?   Maybe a solder bridge between Pin 8 and the chassis.   Can you desolder the 5.0V wires from the Recto Socket and measure each of those wires to ground.   I hate to think your brand new PT is shorted.   It happens, but not very often.

Thank you. THANK YOU. Thank you. It was that. I desoldered the tranformer's wire from pin 8 and pin 8 was still grounded! And the transformer's wire wasn't grounded anymore! And now pin 8 was only connected to... the standby  switch. I unmounted the standby switch from the chassis and finally pin 8 ceased to be grounded!

Such a simple thing has made me wait about a month, but now I'm gonna have my amp finally running. If I don't find more grounding problems, the jtm45 should be running tomorrow.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 11:42:07 PM by Findeton » Logged
cmoore
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2009, 12:43:09 AM »

Congratulations!!!
Glad you found the problem.  But where was the SB going to ground?
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