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Author Topic: Best quiet amp? lower-wattage clean amps, that don't go flubby on the bass?  (Read 14002 times)
Tone Control
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« on: July 17, 2011, 10:37:11 AM »

I have a few nice amps which are too loud to play most of the hours of the day. I have an Iso box for recording, but sometimes I just want to play "in the room" at the wrong time of day, not through the desk.

I've tried various single-ended amps, and even the best don't work 100% for me. My latest is a Carr Mercury, and it's good, but I still want to try a quieter push/pull.
I want the feel of a BM50, JTM45 or a DC30, but quieter, and none of those amps retain that feel as the master volume comes down. Maybe I'm looking for the impossible

Away from home, I've tried a 70s Princeton, a Watkins Westminster, and an EVA 18w trem clone, all of which had a good warm clean sound. without getting flubby on the bass (well the tiny watkins speaker flubbed).
Does anyone have any other suggestions for me to test? I'm looking for a clean warm sound, no OD

Having said all this, I got complaints from neighbours when I was playing the Carr, and that's only 7w
really I'm just asking, what are the best lower-wattage clean amps, that don't go flubby on the bass?
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 04:34:07 AM »

I've got an Ampeg Jet II 12R that is very warm and clean at low volumes. It does saturate fairly quickly above about 6 or so, especially with the reissue Mullard EL84's in it, but with the Reissue Gold Lions and some 7025's in the pre amp it is very warm and clean indeed. Some literature suggests that it is a Class A amp, some sources say it is Class AB, so i can't tell you for certain. It does not get flubby in the bass at all, unless you dime the bass control at full volume, and that is with the stock speaker, and i have had the amp since 1994.

another solution involves the BM50, but is a little unorthodox and requires a c-lator, which i can't recall if you use or not. I have been fiddling around with mine quite a bit lately, trying to get Freddie Kings nice warm, yet bright non flubby sound that was a clean, yet overdriven sound, you know the type. He tended to use big clean amps pushed hard, like dual showmans, twin reverbs, concert amps, etc. The big key, though was that he set all the tone controls except the treble to ZERO. I figured the BM is close to a BF fender, so i gave it a shot. First, i pulled the larger 6L6's out and put the JAN Phillips 6L6WGB's back in, and biased them at 42 mA (the lowest i can get them with my current bias circuit). Those little tubes have a much tighter bass response and better upper mid and treble response as well. then i ran all the tone controls to zero, including the presence, and turned the treble up to 10. I turned all the bright switches off, midboost off, and deep off set the preamp volume to 7 (about 1 or 2 o clpck), the master to about 10, set the drive control on the c-lator to about 1 clock, input wide open, about 5 clock, and used the out to control the overall volume per normal. Bear in mind i have Weber 1265 Alnico speakers, which are not as dark as standrard g12-65's, they are a bit more warm and bright, rather than dark and wooly. I gotta tell ya, it sounds gorgeous! Nice and warm and clean, a little dirty if you dig into hard, and gets a nice warm overdrive saturation sound if you use a nice clean boost pedal, or in my case engage the mega PAB. Very smooth singing overdrive sound, and a nice warm overdriven power chord type sound, not crunchy at all. If you don't have a clean boost or dislike the PAB you can crank the drive control up on the c-lator as well, and it can yield the same results, very nice indeed. Also, unless you engage the deep switch, it is NOT flubby at all, and you can control the volume quite effectively with the c-lator, and since the master is up quite high on the amp itself, it is very lively. Mind you this is all on the CLEAN channel, not the OD. The OD side is even more fun! give it a try!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 04:36:24 AM by plasticvonaband » Logged

Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
Kevster
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 01:36:55 PM »

A guy at my church has an Ampeg Jet II around for a back up amp.  The thing has almost no clean headroom.  IT doesn't get used much because it is such a limited amp.

I have the best solution for low volume I've found yet.  Though I hate pedals, I have to use them for what I play (contemporary Praise and Worship).  A truly good OD pedal (NOT a Tube Screamer, which is far inferior to my OCD and Zendrive 1), a good compressor sustainer, and a decent guitar eq pedal will do all you want for good bedroom/low volume tones.  The EQ needs to be LAST in that chain.  The compression is not necessaily great for true tone, but the sustain gives you another component of a cranked amp that is lacking at low volumes.  The OD is obvious...  The EQ compensates for the lack of fullness that is inherent at lower volumes, and my Bill M modded Blues Junior is good from conversation volume all the way up to the volume required to use it as a monitor (I use it with a mic through the PA) at a range of 4'-6' from me.  It keeps up with acoustic drums in that configuration and without changing any settings, so it is versatile.  The amp is kept pure clean (pre-amp low, using the power amp for volume).

This all changes when my OTS-50 FM ME with C-Lator is here and done.  Then, I'll be doing more or less what Plasticvonaband said..

SOON!!!!

Hope that helps

BTW, the EQ is mid-scooped, with the very top rolled off and the low end pushed.  Basically, I do to descending shaoes on a 7 band.. High-Mid-Low-High-Mid-Lower/Mid-Low... It seems to work.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 01:41:43 PM by Kevster » Logged
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2011, 06:33:21 PM »

Awesome that you found a solution that works! As to the Jet, the clean headroom is all tube related. The trick is to find a set that saturates at a higher volume. As Tone Control originally stated, he wants a good low volume clean solution with no low end flubbiness. The BM set up I mentioned above works very well in that regard, as does the Ampeg, at low volumes. I actually had a battery powered pignose back in the day that was very clean at low volumes and wasn't flabby in the low end. Not tube powered, but very simple
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 01:57:35 AM »

To be honest, that situation is tailor cut for a solid-state amp.

Clean is something they do well, and they sound the same on 1 as they do on 10. 

For bedroom/apartment volume, SS amps are something I highly recommend.  Not even a need for a modeller for clean tones.

For tubes, you really have to reach that output point where they spring to life, and that usually means some volume, even on a 5-watt amp.  But if you go tubes, a Master Volume (or equivalent) is a must.
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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 02:03:55 AM »

i was kinda thinkin the same thing, i just don't know how Tone Control feels about SS amps Wink
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
wyatt
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 02:13:35 AM »

i was kinda thinkin the same thing, i just don't know how Tone Control feels about SS amps Wink

If always an iffy subject to suggest a SS amp on a tube-based board.  Many people look down their nose at them.

But they have their niche where they really shine...and this is it.
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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 04:21:40 AM »

agreed. the last SS amp i had was a 150w head, i wanna say it was a brand called yorkville or something. low volume clean was its forte for sure, even though it was a high wattage head. Those lil hybrids from fender like the Champ XD and the like aren't bad either.
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
Tone Control
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 07:07:05 PM »

I've got an Ampeg Jet II 12R that is very warm and clean at low volumes. It does saturate fairly quickly above about 6 or so, especially with the reissue Mullard EL84's in it, but with the Reissue Gold Lions and some 7025's in the pre amp it is very warm and clean indeed. Some literature suggests that it is a Class A amp, some sources say it is Class AB, so i can't tell you for certain. It does not get flubby in the bass at all, unless you dime the bass control at full volume, and that is with the stock speaker, and i have had the amp since 1994.

another solution involves the BM50, but is a little unorthodox and requires a c-lator, which i can't recall if you use or not. I have been fiddling around with mine quite a bit lately, trying to get Freddie Kings nice warm, yet bright non flubby sound that was a clean, yet overdriven sound, you know the type. He tended to use big clean amps pushed hard, like dual showmans, twin reverbs, concert amps, etc. The big key, though was that he set all the tone controls except the treble to ZERO. I figured the BM is close to a BF fender, so i gave it a shot. First, i pulled the larger 6L6's out and put the JAN Phillips 6L6WGB's back in, and biased them at 42 mA (the lowest i can get them with my current bias circuit). Those little tubes have a much tighter bass response and better upper mid and treble response as well. then i ran all the tone controls to zero, including the presence, and turned the treble up to 10. I turned all the bright switches off, midboost off, and deep off set the preamp volume to 7 (about 1 or 2 o clpck), the master to about 10, set the drive control on the c-lator to about 1 clock, input wide open, about 5 clock, and used the out to control the overall volume per normal. Bear in mind i have Weber 1265 Alnico speakers, which are not as dark as standrard g12-65's, they are a bit more warm and bright, rather than dark and wooly. I gotta tell ya, it sounds gorgeous! Nice and warm and clean, a little dirty if you dig into hard, and gets a nice warm overdrive saturation sound if you use a nice clean boost pedal, or in my case engage the mega PAB. Very smooth singing overdrive sound, and a nice warm overdriven power chord type sound, not crunchy at all. If you don't have a clean boost or dislike the PAB you can crank the drive control up on the c-lator as well, and it can yield the same results, very nice indeed. Also, unless you engage the deep switch, it is NOT flubby at all, and you can control the volume quite effectively with the c-lator, and since the master is up quite high on the amp itself, it is very lively. Mind you this is all on the CLEAN channel, not the OD. The OD side is even more fun! give it a try!

that's amazing advice, shame I sold my C-lator!
So you're using hte C-lator as an extra master vol?
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
Tone Control
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 07:10:04 PM »

A guy at my church has an Ampeg Jet II around for a back up amp.  The thing has almost no clean headroom.  IT doesn't get used much because it is such a limited amp.

I have the best solution for low volume I've found yet.  Though I hate pedals, I have to use them for what I play (contemporary Praise and Worship).  A truly good OD pedal (NOT a Tube Screamer, which is far inferior to my OCD and Zendrive 1), a good compressor sustainer, and a decent guitar eq pedal will do all you want for good bedroom/low volume tones.  The EQ needs to be LAST in that chain.  The compression is not necessaily great for true tone, but the sustain gives you another component of a cranked amp that is lacking at low volumes.  The OD is obvious...  The EQ compensates for the lack of fullness that is inherent at lower volumes, and my Bill M modded Blues Junior is good from conversation volume all the way up to the volume required to use it as a monitor (I use it with a mic through the PA) at a range of 4'-6' from me.  It keeps up with acoustic drums in that configuration and without changing any settings, so it is versatile.  The amp is kept pure clean (pre-amp low, using the power amp for volume).

This all changes when my OTS-50 FM ME with C-Lator is here and done.  Then, I'll be doing more or less what Plasticvonaband said..

SOON!!!!

Hope that helps

BTW, the EQ is mid-scooped, with the very top rolled off and the low end pushed.  Basically, I do to descending shaoes on a 7 band.. High-Mid-Low-High-Mid-Lower/Mid-Low... It seems to work.

this sounds sensible, for recording through my Isobox, I often have to use a multi-band compressor with a mid-scoop to liven up the mic'd speaker
What's a high-enough quality EQ for my lovely amps then? (My favourite OD pedal is my new Zen drive 2 btw)
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
Kevster
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 07:24:04 PM »

If I had to replace what I've got, I'd go with the MXR 10 band.  I currently use the Boss GE-7 (I know, Boss... Ugh!), but the price was right, mopney was tight, and it isn't too bad.  I don't think I'd buy it again, but for $10 it was worth it. 

I don't hate all Boss pedals, but I haven'tfound too many I like.  This is about the only one I'm OK with.  If it is modulation or OD, I run away from Boss and old school Digitech.  I've heard some good things about the Digitech Hardwire line.  I haven't heard of a Digitech Hardwire EQ, though...

It often works out that the old adage "You get what you pay for" rings true... Unless you really do your homework and buy Ceriatone...

Do I get free stuff for a comment like that?  Cheesy Wink
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Tone Control
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 07:27:32 PM »

i was kinda thinkin the same thing, i just don't know how Tone Control feels about SS amps Wink

If always an iffy subject to suggest a SS amp on a tube-based board.  Many people look down their nose at them.

But they have their niche where they really shine...and this is it.

It's a fair point, you can make a really nice SS amp, and that would be nice with a hollowbody. I had a lovely sounding Hughes and kettner one once, but my Twin did the same trick, so I lent it to a friend who sold it, I only sold him stuff after that! However, with way too many nice valve amps in this room, I'd feel a bit strange leaving them off to play a SS amp. I  want to be approaching the sound and feel I get from the valve amps, and I do live in a brick-built detached house, so it doesn't need to be bedroom-level, just loud hi-fi level. I've tried quite a few low-power SE valve amps (and a low-power PP amp), and they all lack something, I am guessing that it's down to the 50 years of natural selection the bigger amps have benefited from - better designs will arrive one day. The Carr mercury is good, but can flub. My Wienbrock 1w push-pull is good, but a bit too quiet, you can't get much bass out of it of course, and the preamp valve used for push/pull is a very different sound to a 6L6. The 5w Marshall and BH5 are OK, but not great, but that's an growly EL84 sound. I had a BH5 modded to run a 6L6 in parallel. Again, it's good, but not as satisfying as playing a BM50 or DC30
The watkins westminster 10w was nice, would that be possible to replicate? I need to look around..
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
Tone Control
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 07:43:29 PM »

actually the easiest thing is to buy a Watkins westminster. I found 3 for £500 each here in England.
hmmmmm
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
Tone Control
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 07:49:25 PM »

If I had to replace what I've got, I'd go with the MXR 10 band.  I currently use the Boss GE-7 (I know, Boss... Ugh!), but the price was right, mopney was tight, and it isn't too bad.  I don't think I'd buy it again, but for $10 it was worth it. 

I don't hate all Boss pedals, but I haven'tfound too many I like.  This is about the only one I'm OK with.  If it is modulation or OD, I run away from Boss and old school Digitech.  I've heard some good things about the Digitech Hardwire line.  I haven't heard of a Digitech Hardwire EQ, though...

It often works out that the old adage "You get what you pay for" rings true... Unless you really do your homework and buy Ceriatone...

Do I get free stuff for a comment like that?  Cheesy Wink

MXR one looks promising. I had Boss pedals that killed my tone, so I'm wary.

well the same principle applies as with Ceriatone - you can get replica pedals as kits too. Some are very good. I now try to avoid buying a replica if the designer is still making the same quality item at a normal price, but for pedals that are $800 used, I feel OK about getting a kit, same with all the classic valve amp replicas too - I prefer Ceriatone or Victoria to Fender & Marshall reissues
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
plasticvonaband
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2011, 08:11:47 PM »

yup. i use the c-lator as a global master volume. lets me push those lil 6L6WGB's and get some nice saturation. they don't last long anyway, so i might as well enjoy em Smiley it works pretty well, lets ya get a good clean sound out of it at low volumes as well.
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
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