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Author Topic: Express clone question  (Read 12449 times)
leodiditright
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« on: December 27, 2010, 03:11:07 AM »

Is a regular Ceriatone Expression able to get tones as great as those:http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9925235 To me that's the way it should sound. Of course the amp will need some kind of attenuation to get this level of saturation without playing freakin' loud!

Which kind of attenuation is the best for the Expression?  external power attenuator or internal Hall VVR??
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 03:15:11 AM by leodiditright » Logged

cmoore
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 11:54:55 AM »

Our Express is pretty loud when it attains that much saturation. But, I believe the Vapour is a 2 x 6V6 chassis. I have never tried a pair of 6V6 in our Express. I have only heard it with EL34 power tubes.
Even a 5 watt amp is "loud" when it is turned up. I guess it all depends on what your noise issues are. Do you play in an apartment, is that your concern?
Honestly, if loudness is a problem, I would not not get an Express, I would build a much smaller amp. I think the whole Train Wreck mystique is a little over blown.
Good Luck
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leodiditright
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 05:37:36 PM »

Our Express is pretty loud when it attains that much saturation. But, I believe the Vapour is a 2 x 6V6 chassis. I have never tried a pair of 6V6 in our Express. I have only heard it with EL34 power tubes.
Even a 5 watt amp is "loud" when it is turned up. I guess it all depends on what your noise issues are. Do you play in an apartment, is that your concern?
Honestly, if loudness is a problem, I would not not get an Express, I would build a much smaller amp. I think the whole Train Wreck mystique is a little over blown.
Good Luck

So you're saying that the Expression cannot sound good with any kind of attenuation...?

My basic use will be for rehearsals and gigs, but of course being able to play it at home too is a +.

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cmoore
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 06:15:00 PM »

No, I am not saying that. I did not even mention the word attenuator. Some guys like them and some guys do not. When you change, reduce, attenuate, there is always a price to pay. It is hard to say What method you will prefer. The VVR circuits are very popular, but again, how do you know if you will like it on an amp that you do not yet own.
If an Express suits your needs for gigging and rehearsal, I would not hesitate to buy it. You can play a Valve Jr. at home. What difference would it make.
Wish I could tell you what the Express sounds like with dual 6V6, but we never tried it. Of course, even with 6V6, you will still have a 35-40 watt out tranny. Do you know anybody that has one of these amps that you could try?
Darin (at Tonic Amps) is a real nice guy. You might email him and ask some advice. You should also email Nik and get his opinion. You might like an Express with dual 6V6 and a OT that is lower wattage than what is used with a pair of EL34's.
Good Luck
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Tone Control
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 07:07:07 PM »

I got an Expression with VVR and master volume
For me, the VVR adds nothing useful
The master vol works quite well
6v6s sounded lame when I tried them

As far as I can see, the magic of this amp is that it plays clean when you dial the guitar volume down. Not that much use as a trick for most people.
The tone is good, and if you like Marshalls it's a better version of that 80s sound than any Marshalls I've tried (which is not all of them)

I preferred to replace some of the preamp & PI valves to get a better tone and slower breakup
You will not be able to get a good tone from this amp quietly,unless you invest in an Isolation Cab
The THD hotplate and Marshall powerbrake were not good enough for me.
Some people like power scaling or VVR or hotplates. I bought them all. They all suck tone. tbh a dummy load and a speaker emulation from Amplitube 3 does better (I've tired this)
If you need quiet, get an ISO Cab.
The Randall one is not as quiet as you might want, but sounds great. The Axetrak is very quiet but needs a lot of EQ and doesn't work for everything.
Pretty easy to get one built for yourself though.

Cheers
Tone
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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
leodiditright
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2010, 10:35:54 PM »

On the Amp Garage, some folks seem to enjoy a lower wattage Express built by Dana Hall...

Tonic amps are too expensive for me, only Ceriatone got the right price.
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Tone Control
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 12:52:08 AM »

On the Amp Garage, some folks seem to enjoy a lower wattage Express built by Dana Hall...

Tonic amps are too expensive for me, only Ceriatone got the right price.

How can it have the same characteristics and be lower wattage?
Is it a 2x EL84 model?
If so, aside from all the other circuit elements, EL84s do not sound similar enough to EL34s
I just sold a Cornell 18w Plexi - to me it sounded nothing like the Ceriatone JTM45 I had bought subsequently, so I sold the Cornell. Lovely amp, but not the sweet spot of the sound in the JTM45

Cheers
Tone
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 09:55:06 AM by Tone Control » Logged

Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
leodiditright
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 01:08:32 AM »

There must be a way to make smaller amps sound big enough as long as it is not an ultra low wattage single-ended amp it should not sound too small and boxy.
I believe it's what Dana Hall is making.
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Tone Control
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 10:18:31 AM »

There must be a way to make smaller amps sound big enough as long as it is not an ultra low wattage single-ended amp it should not sound too small and boxy.
I believe it's what Dana Hall is making.

I hope there is a way.

Trouble is, the reproductions Nik sells are based on those amp designs that, out of the thousands of designs made over 60 years, have proved the most enduring and popular with guitarists. These are almost all push-pull designs based on 6v6, EL34, 6L6, KT66 valves or similar.

I have bought 8 low-powered valve amps. Only 2 of them sounded good, none of them sound as good as a JTM45 or a DC30, etc
You are entering a market where there has not been 60 years of competition and refinement, most of them are the first or second low-powered design from the builder.

To me it is not yet proven that you can get the tone of the best high-powered amps with the low powered ones. They are getting closer, but there are  obstacles:
1. Each valve type has its own tone
2. push-pull sounds different, but doubles the power
3. We are still at the early experimental phase, there is not a 60 year legacy of low-powered designs from which we can cherry-pick our favourites

The best sounding low-powered amps I have owned have been:
RAT BH5 mod: Blackheart BH5 + valve rectifier + 6L6 mixed in parallel single ended with the EL84 + new OPT. Less than 10w, combines 6L6 sound with EL84 breakup
Wienbrock ME-1. Push-pull using one 6SN7 dual triode valve, plus basic tonestack + valve rectifier. Very low power (1w?).
Biggest problem to ovecome is having no tight bottom end, and getting the right speaker.

My conclusion of buying and selling a lot of amps recently is: the reason some models are so popular and are reproduced so often is that they are the designs that, by fluke or effort, were the ones where all the many factors in the amp came together to create something really, really special. You certainly can tell when you play one.
I've felt this way playing a Matchless DC30, a DZ30, JTM45, Twin II, BM50, Wienbrock ME3 and ME4, Vox AC15H1TV, AC10 Twin.

Whilst it's a fair objective to make a lower powered version of a classic, you have to accept that you're really throwing the dice again, and 98% of the time, you won't be fortunate enough to match the sound of the classic.
Using different valves (to the usual suspects), you're back to the 50s with Leo, trying combinations out for the first time - some designs will work, some not

btw biggest range of low power amps I've seen is a EVA (English Valve Amps), they do about 20-30 models of Marshall derivatives.
I tried 3 at a show, they sounded very good, but I can't pass judgement on any amp until I've had it to myself for a few days in a quieter situation

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Dr Tone Control, Strats mostly, prefer saturated clean tones, a little OD sometimes
BM50, JTM45, 36w EF86, DZ30, Expression, + non-Ceriatones (Matchless, Victoria, Wienbrock)
Just started with pedals a little after a 10 year purist spell, but usually just delay
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