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| | |-+  Yet another DC-30 FX loop question...
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Author Topic: Yet another DC-30 FX loop question...  (Read 6883 times)
Harry_Spider
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« on: January 25, 2010, 02:25:09 PM »

ok, so I had figured out (all on my own self even!) that the effects loops required insert cables, one for each channel...

Now, I have a pedal board that's been evolving over the years, used it with many amps.  It has a home-made "cable snake"; that is, 3 long leads which I normally would just plug one each into an amp's input, send and return.  For my newly acquired Dizzy30, instead of an actual insert cable, I bought a stereo plug to Y-adapter with female ends, figuring that it's wired same as an insert cable, I'd just plug in my send/return cables.

Well... Doing that causes the amp to produce a sound like a siren from a toy robot or something.  EEEEuuuuEEEEuuuuEEEEuuuu 

Swapped in for out, no improvement. 

So... Would someone kindly provide me a clue here?  I often lack them...

I read elsewhere that this amp can't deal with long effects cables;  true?  what's the fix (if any)? 

To be useful in my act, I really do need certain effects to be in the loop, not ahead of the preamp.  So if this amp is really not able to play nice with my pedal board, I will be disappointed... (with myself for failing to do my homework ahead of time!)

any help / tips appreciated... :-)
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wyatt
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 07:29:05 PM »

A couple of things may be going on here...

Many Y adapters that the stereo single and mix it down to mono for each side, meaning each mono jack gets both tip and ring signal.   You have to make sure, on your particular Y adapter that the stereo tip goes to one jack and the stereo ring goes to the other. 

The FX loop on the DC30 is a simple interrupt loop.  It's pretty much a hack.  All it does is split the circuit right before the phase inverter and allow it to be sent out the FX loop and then back again before continuing on into the power amp.  It's signal may be too hot for pedals, which are expecting to see guitar-level signals, and too unstable even for some line level racks systems.  Interrupt loops are a simplest way to add FX loops to circuits because they don't add additional components to the signal chain, which is why you usually see them hack onto amps that were designed with no intention of an FX loop.  Since the DC30 is just a trem-channel-less AC30 with more filtering, it's fairly bare bones, the FX loop was added practically as an after thought.  And the reason long cable runs don't work well is because you are sending all the signal from the amp out through the FX loop and back again, in short you are adding an addition 20' or 30' of wiring in the signal chain of the amp. 

Now, with all this said, modern amps, designed to have FX loops, almost always use buffered FX loops...buffered either with extra tubes or through op-amp chips.  This allows both guitar and line-level FX to be use in the loop.  Dumble, who commonly used the interrupt loop used to build a tube-based outboard buffer called the Dumblator (sp??).  Ceriatone offers a SS version called the Klein-ulator. 

Sometimes, in the past, I've been able to get by with just having a buffered effect (Boos, Ibanez, DOD, etc) as the first and last thing in an interrupt loop.  For a while, I would use an old DOD Gate/Loop pedal ($20 or less used) and put everything for the FX loop in the DOD's loop and let that one pedal provide the buffers at both the beginning and end...in short I used it the same way one would use a Klein-ulator.

But whatever your solution is, you'll have to do some testing to figure it out. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 07:30:48 PM by wyatt » Logged
alwalt
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 08:29:22 PM »

or, if you are ok with using the effects loop as it is, you can do as I did:

One stereo cable that comes out of the amp's effect loop, that goes into a hammond box on the pedalboard that split's the signal into send and return. This way, you only use one cable that carries send and return to the amp. From the hammond box, the signal comes out from the tip (send on the hammond), goes to the effects (including a TF that acts as a buffer) and returns to the return on the hammond, that is the ring of the stereo cable.

Basically it is a Y splitter, but not as weak as a regular Y splitter.
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Harry_Spider
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 06:02:07 PM »

A couple of things may be going on here... 

Thank u very much for that thorough explanation! 

I had been reading in the interim, and I had found out about the Dumbulator; but I just could not fathom why the Dumble amp would need such a thing.  Seeing this effects loop as a "hack" as you put it, it becomes clear why just running it out to my pedal board will not work, probably ever, unless I had some kind of buffer.  Now then...

The idea of a buffered pedal sounds, um, antagonistic to the concept of preserving tone, am I wrong about that?  I've spent all this time getting custom or modded "true-bypass" pedals, and now, ironically, I need something that sounds, well, opposite to that approach... is there a pedal that just acts as a buffer and nothing else?

Last subjective question, I hesitate to open this can or worms:  what would be the impact on tone to add either buffered pedals, or to add a buffered FX loop to the circuit?  I've read some people say FX loops ruin everything, but I've owned some great amps over the years which had them.  What would this addition do, in your opinion, to THIS amp?  any / all comments welcome...

thanks again!



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Harry_Spider
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 06:05:07 PM »

or, if you are ok with using the effects loop as it is, you can do as I did:

One stereo cable that comes out of the amp's effect loop, that goes into a hammond box on the pedalboard that split's the signal into send and return. This way, you only use one cable that carries send and return to the amp. From the hammond box, the signal comes out from the tip (send on the hammond), goes to the effects (including a TF that acts as a buffer) and returns to the return on the hammond, that is the ring of the stereo cable.

Thanks for that, I do intend to try several things.  But if you would kindly tell me what a TF is, I will be on my way...

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alwalt
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 01:25:40 PM »

or, if you are ok with using the effects loop as it is, you can do as I did:

One stereo cable that comes out of the amp's effect loop, that goes into a hammond box on the pedalboard that split's the signal into send and return. This way, you only use one cable that carries send and return to the amp. From the hammond box, the signal comes out from the tip (send on the hammond), goes to the effects (including a TF that acts as a buffer) and returns to the return on the hammond, that is the ring of the stereo cable.

Thanks for that, I do intend to try several things.  But if you would kindly tell me what a TF is, I will be on my way...


Oh sorry... I mean a TimeFactor delay pedal. This can act as a buffer as it has input/output level switches (line/amp/guitar) that vary the level incoming and coming out from the pedal. There is a always an slight high freqs cut if you a/b the straight dry signal to the amp and the dry signal having the loop connected (pedals off). But I compensate this by opening the cut control. I use the loop basically for the delay pedal, and an volume boost for solos via en ge7 moded eq.
The signal comes and goes by one stereo cable, so I am saving one cable on the setup!

Hope this helps!
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