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Author Topic: Lower powered Overtone style  (Read 9532 times)
buckjazz71
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« on: August 12, 2011, 05:15:33 PM »

I would love to have an Overtone in the 15-20 watt range.  Is it even possible to get close tonally in the wattage?
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T Wilcox
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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 05:47:53 PM »

If you use a buffered effects unit such as the C-lator with either the 50 or 100 watters you can attenuate the volume down to bedroom level without affecting tone too much so there is really no need for a lower wattage.

One thing about a smaller wattage version would be the weight of the amp would be much easier to haul around although with smaller trannies

Todd
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SoundPerf
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« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 07:34:27 PM »

Here's a link to other links of a lower wattage D-style amp.

It sounds awesome and I want possibly build this someday!

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15526
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Chris

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« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 09:43:15 PM »

+1 on using the c-lator as a global master. You can drive the power section hard and control the volume fairly well with little sacrifice in tone. That's what I do when I practice at home and in small venues.

FWIW Nik had plans for 5 watters no too long ago, and a 10-15 watter would seem like a next logical step
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
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jmernyk
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2011, 10:29:07 AM »

Sorry, you are not driving the power amp section hard if you are turning down with a C-lator, it becomes a new master. Since the tones and crunch are developed in the pre-amp, turning down with a C-lator (or your amp's master) allows you have your sound at any lower volume. Power amp only gets driven hard if you play LOUD or use an attenuator between amp and speaker.....

+1 on using the c-lator as a global master. You can drive the power section hard and control the volume fairly well with little sacrifice in tone. That's what I do when I practice at home and in small venues.

FWIW Nik had plans for 5 watters no too long ago, and a 10-15 watter would seem like a next logical step
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SoundPerf
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 12:28:52 PM »

Sorry, you are not driving the power amp section hard if you are turning down with a C-lator, it becomes a new master. Since the tones and crunch are developed in the pre-amp, turning down with a C-lator (or your amp's master) allows you have your sound at any lower volume. Power amp only gets driven hard if you play LOUD or use an attenuator between amp and speaker.....
I have to agree with this for the most part. The C-lator does give another level of tone shaping, but it's going to be in the preamp. Nothing will substitutes cranking an amp, but cranking the amp. Wink  The attenuator does help get you there, but I was never really impressed with the results using them with most amps. Even a low wattage amp is relatively loud once cranked to its sweet spot. But overall I would say a lower wattage amp is the best solution.
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Chris

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 01:03:26 PM »

Actually, since the C-lator injects the signal in front of the PI, it works as a Pre Phase Inverter Master Volume. If you set your Clean Pre amp to around 5 and your Clean Master to somewhere between 8-10 the preamp section will hardly be overdriven at all. Now, the voltage and current increases through your the PI and Power Tubes, and will begin to compress (distort) a bit. Raising the output on the C-Lator then injects signal into the PI, and any signal entering will be compressed. Conversely, you can lower your Master, and crank the Output on the C-Lator and drive the PI very hard and turn your master up to the level you want and enjoy a different type of distortion. The PI is actually part of the Power Amp section, and in non master volume amps when you crank them, you hear a combination of pre amp, PI, power tube, and of course speaker distortion. True power tube saturation is hard to achieve except on lower powered Class A amps, or sometimes on lower powered Class AB amps. Having an OTS or any amp with a simple insert loop gives us the oppurtunity to experience true power tube saturation by using a device like a C-Lator to turn the master up, saturate the tubes, and then control the amount of signal and thus the volume nicely. Of course, speaker distortion is not present, but I'm not the biggest fan of speaker distortion anyway
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Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
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SoundPerf
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 04:46:35 PM »

Actually, since the C-lator injects the signal in front of the PI, it works as a Pre Phase Inverter Master Volume. If you set your Clean Pre amp to around 5 and your Clean Master to somewhere between 8-10 the preamp section will hardly be overdriven at all. Now, the voltage and current increases through your the PI and Power Tubes, and will begin to compress (distort) a bit. Raising the output on the C-Lator then injects signal into the PI, and any signal entering will be compressed. Conversely, you can lower your Master, and crank the Output on the C-Lator and drive the PI very hard and turn your master up to the level you want and enjoy a different type of distortion. The PI is actually part of the Power Amp section, and in non master volume amps when you crank them, you hear a combination of pre amp, PI, power tube, and of course speaker distortion. True power tube saturation is hard to achieve except on lower powered Class A amps, or sometimes on lower powered Class AB amps. Having an OTS or any amp with a simple insert loop gives us the oppurtunity to experience true power tube saturation by using a device like a C-Lator to turn the master up, saturate the tubes, and then control the amount of signal and thus the volume nicely. Of course, speaker distortion is not present, but I'm not the biggest fan of speaker distortion anyway

First let me say that I don't disagree with much of what you are saying here. (Although I do not agree 100%) When I hear someone talk about getting a tube amp to sound like a cranked tube amp, but at bedroom levels (whatever that means) I just don't think it's possible. I'm not even necessarily talking about power tube saturation, but more the fullness of the dynamic range that is achieved. I just finished building my dlator and experimenting extensively this week and no matter how you cut it, it's always a matter of "robbing Peter to pay Paul" sort of thing. As soon as you turn down whatever level to bring the volume down to low levels all the "fullness and open air dynamics" start to get lost.

I still love the Dlator for the fact that you can hit the PI harder (or sometimes not) and get another level of gain to play with and smooth things even further. Also when cranking the amp it gives even more control. Plus it is still nice to have the lower level control that you do get...and also the main purpose of being a buffer.

Basically, it's all an over simplification because it's everything from the preamp to the power to the speakers that make that cranked amp sound, sound so great. And the thing is, I'm not even talking about ear blistering levels, just that point where it comes alive. Which has always been in my experience, a level that most wifes, kids, neighbors, and basically non-guitarists find to be "too loud".  Sad

That's why I say "screw em"....play it louder!!  Wink

Just to clarify, I don't think hitting the PI harder with Dlator necessarily transfers to driving the power tubes the same way as driving the whole amp circuit from input to output hard.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 04:48:07 PM by SoundPerf » Logged

Chris

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M Fowler
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 08:45:40 PM »

The Ceriatone Dizzy 30 PT fits the PT cutout of a Fender 100w PT I put one in a ODS chassis by CE.

Mark
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gfhghjghj
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 09:04:02 PM »

If you use a buffered effects unit such as the C-lator with either the 50 or 100 watters you can attenuate the volume down to bedroom level without affecting tone too much so there is really no need for a lower wattage.
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City Hunter
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 01:39:10 PM »

This forum really needs an admin!
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hywelg
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2012, 10:30:03 AM »

Despite what all the c-lator proponents say, you cannot get the same dynamics/harmonics with a master volume/attenuator/powerscaling as you get when the power section is being driven hard.

Thats why a 5-7 watter and a 12-15 watt OTS would be a very good idea. Fuchs have done that with their Casino range and I'd bet they're onto a winner with it. TR similarly.
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plasticvonaband
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 11:04:01 AM »

Despite what all the c-lator proponents say, you cannot get the same dynamics/harmonics with a master volume/attenuator/powerscaling as you get when the power section is being driven hard.

Thats why a 5-7 watter and a 12-15 watt OTS would be a very good idea. Fuchs have done that with their Casino range and I'd bet they're onto a winner with it. TR similarly.

I agree with this and after further testing, disagree with what i said earlier in the thread. I stopped using my c-lator with my BM and there is a world of difference, even at lower volume levels there is more girth and grunt to the amp in every way. The c-lator is a nice way to put effects in the loop if you need a buffer, and it does change the dynamic of the amp quite a bit, but not always for the better. using it as a sort of attenuator doesn't work very well, at least not to me, and not with my setup, anyway.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 11:07:08 AM by plasticvonaband » Logged

Overdrive is like peanut butter. Some like it crunchy, some like it creamy.
Bluesmaster 50 2x12 combo and some guitars.
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